The BL Banner Poll

[Mike1984]

Yeah...

Maybe in an ideal world. However, all we can do is try to get as close to that ideal world as possible.

Yeah, but that's not what DP actually does. He goes with the majority opinion even when the majority isn't that bothered whilst the minority cares a lot, and ignores the opinions of the minority entirely, even when he could easily listen to them without pissing off everyone else.

[Techlet]

Yeah...

Maybe in an ideal world. However, all we can do is try to get as close to that ideal world as possible.

For example - I'm trying to get closer to an ideal world by using a script to replace people's avatars with Neco Shinji. It's kind of amusing, how much better it makes someone's post.

This is amazing.

[Tusia]

I'm still kinda new there, so I don't know the story of BL-tan so I don't mind new mascot, It's something users can relate to, and I won't hide that I have idea tied with it - but didn't noticed that pool earlier ... and worked with that idea ^^' ... and then noticed pool ...... so I've waited for the pool to end, and as I see results You guys don't want new mascot... so I don't know what to do now xD

Besides TM have so many characters and series that it'll be hard to pick one banner with image
"One person will want Sakura with Rider, the other half naked Sion or Mushroom, and I want Alphard :3c ~ "



It'll be hard to make everyone happy~ ;_;

[SeiKeo]

Yes, Alphard, do that!

[Lianru]

It'll be hard to make everyone happy~ ;_;

Always true.

[Techlet]

Naked Mushroom Sion. ;__;

[Lianru]

As image-and-text won is winning, why don't you draw something abstract as opposed to a character, though?

[Hyarion]

Makes sense.

Actually, you know, I wouldn't mind dropping the kanji entirely and just having an abstract design with "Beast's Lair" superimposed somewhere. Haven't seen that suggested in a while.

[Lianru]

I like the kanji, they're pretty~

[Dark Pulse]

Yeah, but that's not what DP actually does. He goes with the majority opinion even when the majority isn't that bothered whilst the minority cares a lot, and ignores the opinions of the minority entirely, even when he could easily listen to them without pissing off everyone else.

I hardly am ignoring the minority, but the simple fact is that the minority loses. Not everyone gets what they want in life, after all, otherwise I'd have millions of dollars, a private island, and a cadre of attractive women to take care of every single need I may have.

As has been said earlier, pleasing everyone is impossible, so I don't even try. The key is to please as many people as you can. It means some people won't like it, but well, I can't control that. I've depended on the forum for that ever-important feedback, and even though I didn't run this poll, the majority of users picked two categories:

• A group who wants a new banner, period, with images and text, without particular indication as to what that contains (for now).
• A group who wants either a new drawing of the current BL-tan.

Thus, I would boil down what the board wants to this:

• A brand-new banner (or series of banners) is definitely welcomed, and a BL-tan is fine, too.

The problem with what you're arguing, Mike, is that to please "everybody" I would have to please the people who don't want the banner to change (impossible because the majority will dislike it), remove the banner entirely (same) or keep the current one (same). There is absolutely no point in having a forum controlled by the forumites (in some senses) without giving them a voice, whereupon the choices are either to give them a voice (where you will complain because you do not agree with them) or to revoke their ability to have a say in what we do (where you will complain that you do not have a voice). Furthermore, the fact that people have a voice and a say in how their board is run, means that - inevitably - someone is going to vote on the losing side of the issue.

See the problem here?

Absolute equality is, in two words and an interjected expletive, abso-fucking-lutely impossible. As I said, I did the math and to ensure absolute fairness, we'd need to make nearly 400 banners, use each character once, and even then you would still occasionally see characters you either didn't know, didn't like, or god have you - and you'd complain about their presence.

So there's a majority, and the majority is what wins. Consideration is given to the minority, but simply put, utopiaeic equalism is about as much of a dream as perfect peace on Earth, the end of all disease, the end of world hunger, and so on. Therefore, it's best to serve the majority. The minority is given consideration, but simply put, if I tried to please everyone, I would effectively be unable to do my job, because I'm constantly trying to make everyone happy. There has to be limits as to how far I go to please people before it becomes counterproductive. That's what you're failing to grasp, instead perceiving it as "tyranny by majority" and me completely ignoring the minority.

I've never taken this position to try to be Mr. Popular, though from various murmurs I've heard, the vast majority of people are fine with how I do things. There were some decisions that I set, especially early on, that I backed down on later by the very thing you dislike - a populist vote. I set something, the board disagreed, I put it up to a vote, they changed it, I swallowed my pride and I changed my course. Even if I don't personally like it, the board felt that that is what they wanted, and as administrator, it is my job to heed the whims of the users, so long as they're sensible (so no asking for global admin powers, everyone). From what I recall, you sure didn't disagree with the methods used when it was things like poll choice limits (although you sure did complain when most people agreed there should be a general set limit).

I've always valued criticism of my actual duties (they're worth more than praise to me) and so as a result I definitely keep an ear open for people who disagree. At the same time, they have to be willing to compromise, too. What are the odds you're going to look at the banner every time, for example? After a few weeks, probably next to zip. There's also the fact that, simply put, you'd be able to block that banner very easily. As I said, I'm even considering a static banner skin (counterproductive as that is because it means that if I did any changes to the main skin I would also need to do them in the new skin) just in an attempt to appease a few dissenters.

I'd say, realistically, I'm being as fair as I can be - some would argue I'm probably being more fair than I should be. How much further do I have to go?

[Kotonoha]

Yeah...

Maybe in an ideal world. However, all we can do is try to get as close to that ideal world as possible.

For example - I'm trying to get closer to an ideal world by using a script to replace people's avatars with Neco Shinji. It's kind of amusing, how much better it makes someone's post.

That post just got five times more smug!

[RacingeR]

Somehow I imagine Neko-Shinji saying bollocks and I giggle like a schoolgirl.

Oh god the Shinji gland is having an effect! D:

[Lianru]

This was Koto's plan all along?

[Mike1984]

• A group who wants a new banner, period, with images and text, without particular indication as to what that contains (for now).
• A group who wants either a new drawing of the current BL-tan.

Thus, I would boil down what the board wants to this:

• A brand-new banner (or series of banners) is definitely welcomed, and a BL-tan is fine, too.

I think that a new banner is indeed welcomed, but I don't think you can really make much of a judgement on the content of such.

So there's a majority, and the majority is what wins. Consideration is given to the minority, but simply put, utopiaeic equalism is about as much of a dream as perfect peace on Earth, the end of all disease, the end of world hunger, and so on. Therefore, it's best to serve the majority. The minority is given consideration, but simply put, if I tried to please everyone, I would effectively be unable to do my job, because I'm constantly trying to make everyone happy. There has to be limits as to how far I go to please people before it becomes counterproductive. That's what you're failing to grasp, instead perceiving it as "tyranny by majority" and me completely ignoring the minority.

But you are completely ignoring me, and everyone else who has complaints. Don't try to pretend otherwise. You act to serve the majority (by your own admission) whilst trampling over the minority, and you seemingly don't give a flying fuck.

From what I recall, you sure didn't disagree with the methods used when it was things like poll choice limits (although you sure did complain when most people agreed there should be a general set limit).

Actually, yes, I did object, because I don't see any reason to have a limit at all, barring technical limitations. However, I didn't really have a problem with the final result (because I honestly couldn't imagine any scenario where it will get hit, although, amusingly, your poll for banners could end up violating it...), so I didn't see any point in pressing my complaints further.

I'd say, realistically, I'm being as fair as I can be - some would argue I'm probably being more fair than I should be. How much further do I have to go?

How the bloody hell are you being remotely "fair"? Your entire system is set up to be biased towards the majority with no regard whatsoever for the minority, even down to the way you're determining how many banners each character is allowed and the voting system itself.

You've set it up to basically guarentee that Rin, Saber etc. will get as many banners as they're allowed (which will probably be quite a lot) and that less popular characters (which may or may not include Sakura) will get none. Further, the way you're counting banners with multiple characters (particularly when coupled with the 25% restriction) is also biased against minor characters, because images of them with a more major character are likely to be more popular and, thus, images of them alone will likely get washed out (whereas the same will not happen to the major characters because they will be allowed more banners in total). Additionally, your rules for producing images makes it very hard for those of us who can't draw, because we're extremely limited in our choice in pictures to use. Finally, your voting system is designed in such a way that people really can't pick only the banners they like for a particular character (especially if there are a lot of them), because the vote for that character might get split and they'll end up with nothing.

[Trevelyan]

Everyone gets a vote. The poll option with the highest number of votes is the one which is selected. That's eminently fair and reasonable. Sometimes the options aren's ideal, but you find one that works for you better than the rest, and vote for it.

What some people want isn't fairness - they want to be pandered to. To do so would be the unfair thing.

[Techlet]

How's this for a realistic Sakura banner?

Spoiler:

[Trevelyan]

You're being unfair to people who don't know how spoiler tags work. Tyrant. Fuck you. :P

[Kyte]

Additionally, your rules for producing images makes it very hard for those of us who can't draw, because we're extremely limited in our choice in pictures to use.

Once again, because you SURE LOVE IGNORING US. IT'S ONLY NOT COOL WHEN THEY IGNORE YOU ISN'T IT:

There are plenty of pics on the internet, including the full rip of FSN sprites. Paint.NET, GIMP and Photoshop are all readily available. Making a banner using preexisting pics is not hard, it just takes some copy paste, Googling some tutorials and a decent sense of artistic layout. If you really want original art you can commission some, which has the benefit of being both tailored to your preferences and provided in hi-res for your personal use, whether it's a banner, poster, whatever. Really, the only reason you cannot make a banner is laziness.

You keep complaining but you never work for the solution.
You are all that is wrong with BL, the internet and the world in general.

[Mike1984]

Once again, because you SURE LOVE IGNORING US. IT'S ONLY NOT COOL WHEN THEY IGNORE YOU ISN'T IT:

There are plenty of pics on the internet, including the full rip of FSN sprites. Paint.NET, GIMP and Photoshop are all readily available. Making a banner using preexisting pics is not hard, it just takes some copy paste, Googling some tutorials and a decent sense of artistic layout. If you really want original art you can commission some, which has the benefit of being both tailored to your preferences and provided in hi-res for your personal use, whether it's a banner, poster, whatever. Really, the only reason you cannot make a banner is laziness.

You keep complaining but you never work for the solution.
You are all that is wrong with BL, the internet and the world in general.

DP has explicitly excluded anything other than official art and self-produced (or commissioned) art (although I'm not entirely sure why that is somehow considered less prone to complaints than random art from Pixiv...). That is a huge limitation on what we can use, and makes producing a decent picture very difficult, especially with multiple characters.

[Kyte]

DP has explicitly excluded anything other than official art and self-produced (or commissioned) art (although I'm not entirely sure why that is somehow considered less prone to complaints than random art from Pixiv...). That is a huge limitation on what we can use, and makes producing a decent picture very difficult, especially with multiple characters.

I mentioned sprites, didn't I? Tech made a good banner with nothing more than a sprite.
Also: Whine whine whine you haven't even tried. There's plenty of good official art, and given it's a banner there's plenty of leeway to crop and collage from multiple sources. Your argument still fails.

(Commissioned art is legally owned by the commissioner AFAIK, so you don't run into copyright issues as you would with random pixiv art)