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Thread: On the Mike Facebook Controversy.

  1. #1
    N̠͔͓̰͒ͯͥ̉ͦ̂y̖͒á͓͔͙̮̹ͬ.͇̪ͤͨ̾̒.͎͙͇̟̅͒̑̇͋́.̾̽̓͗̄ Dark Pulse's Avatar
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    On the Mike Facebook Controversy.

    We wish to make a few points clear regarding this situation, since a good deal of you know about it, and worse, are having misinformation about it. Normally we do not do this, but seeing as this could lead to a very unfair outcome for one of the participants, we figure it is better to provide this information than to keep it an internal matter, as we normally would.

    As some of you surely know, Neir posted information on an IRC channel we do not moderate on June 21st, that as it turned out, linked to Mike's Facebook profile. No actual real information was obtained, short of his actual name, and a picture, as that profile had been set to private.

    At this point, we began following the paper trail, and we found (at the time) what we had thought to be the answer - namely, that Mike had jokingly challenged nobody could find his Facebook, and Flame took it as a sarcastic challenge, set out, and did it, followed soon after by a later-deleted post indicating "PM sent." A week and a half later, Neir put the profile link in that IRC channel.

    Based on that information, we banned Flame for 3 days (for passing the information on to Neir) and Neir for 7 days (for actually spreading it).

    At this point, Neir protested. His information led me to finding that what had actually happened, which was the following:
    • The PM that Flame had sent was to Mike, not Neir. Mike then asked Flame to remove that post, so he deleted it some hours later.
    • All remained quiet for about a week and a half, until, by Flame's own admission, he became angry at Mike for some reason. As a result, Flame sent the Facebook link along to Neir, completely and 100% unsolicited.
    • A minute or two later, Flame then PMs me, asking me if it was okay for one member to send another member's facebook profile to a third member.
    • Neir then linked this information in that IRC channel about 10 minutes later, and according to Neir, he did not even know for sure that this was Mike's actual Facebook, but he linked it anyway.

    With that new information, we upped Flame's ban to one week. However, Neir is not the one who "stalked" Mike for this information - Flame was.

    Currently, what we are doing with Neir is up to debate. I have provided the information to the other admins, and personally, I do not feel he deserves a one-week punishment (at most, 1-3 days, because he should have used better judgment) but two other admins feel the incident is serious enough that Neir should keep his one week ban as we had originally handed out. They do not want Beast's Lair turning into the sort of site where members stalk other members and try to get information on them - a justifiable concern, I will admit.

    Assuming the last admin agrees with the need to bring up a reduction in Neir's punishment, at that point, we are deadlocked, and in an attempt to resolve it, the decision goes to the mods, who will either pass it (thus reducing or removing Neir's sentence), fail it (thus keeping Neir at his original one-week ban), or likewise deadlock. If they also deadlock, we consult Evospace, fill him in, and his word is absolute and final.

    If anyone has questions, we will try to answer them as best as we can, but please stop blaming Neir as the stalker. Plenty of people are accusing him and angry at him, and it's really not his fault. He's guilty of spreading the link, yes, but he is not the one who sought it out.

    P.S.: Obviously, we don't want anyone else doing this ever again. If you're linking Facebook profiles of other members anywhere, you'd damn well better have their permission.
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  2. #2
    Blue Gunner RoadBuster's Avatar
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    My vote to ban is based upon thus: In acting upon information received, even unsolicited, Beast's Lair was made into a node of personal information trafficking. Once the decision was made to not ignore and not delete the information, responsibility was earned. The intent is not something I can judge, nor will I, just the action. I do not condone the practice of spreading personal information at any level.

    Facebook is semi-public, yes, but without explicit permission, that information is not someone else's to propagate. Even at the job I hold currently, people have been fired for things that appear on that website. As such, I want to make it blatantly clear that Beast's Lair will not be any part of the spread of such information. I don't care WHERE it was posted. It was taken off of this site and spread.

    If it seems strict, it is. I don't think something like this should be taken lightly.


    Anyway, that's my two cents. Whatever the whole decides, I'll back, obviously.


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  3. #3
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    Sorry, but Flame is not the one to blame here. He went looking for my account after I challenged him that he couldn't find it. I have no real problem with that (I went looking for Seika's when she found mine, just out of curiosity). I do have a problem with him PMing it to Neir, but I don't see how that is any worse than what Neir did.

    Further, I don't see how the fact that Neir found the information out via a PM rather than searching for it himself makes it any better. The problem is not that he found my facebook account, it's that he actively spread it around to other people.

    Flame being naturally curious is not something I have an issue with. I am naturally curious, and if someone challenged me to find their facebook account, I'm pretty sure I'd try. The issue is spreading it around to other people without permission.

    Whilst my facebook account is more private now, I would prefer not to have to do that. I like the fact that people I actually know are able to find me on there without too much difficulty, and it doesn't contain enough personal information (aside from my name, profile picture and date of birth, which anyone who would care IRL would already know) to be a serious issue. Unfortunately, I didn't consider the possibility that people on here would hunt me down and then publicise the information.
    Last edited by Mike1984; June 23rd, 2012 at 08:03 AM.

  4. #4
    Stupid Low Luck Rating Elf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoadBuster View Post
    My vote to ban is based upon thus: In acting upon information received, even unsolicited, Beast's Lair was made into a node of personal information trafficking. Once the decision was made to not ignore and not delete the information, responsibility was earned. The intent is not something I can judge, nor will I, just the action. I do not condone the practice of spreading personal information at any level.

    Facebook is semi-public, yes, but without explicit permission, that information is not someone else's to propagate. Even at the job I hold currently, people have been fired for things that appear on that website. As such, I want to make it blatantly clear that Beast's Lair will not be any part of the spread of such information. I don't care WHERE it was posted. It was taken off of this site and spread.

    If it seems strict, it is. I don't think something like this should be taken lightly.
    I agree with my husband here.

    This should not have happened, and I am for Neir keeping the one week ban. (I was the one who suggested it in the first place.) Both what Flame and Neir did was grossly wrong and needs to be dealt with in a serious manner. We want our visitors and regulars to feel safe at BL, not that people can give other people information about each other to use for ill gain.

    Neir did not have to post that information, and honestly he should have told one of us Admins or a moderator what Flame had done. He did none of the above and just posted it on the chat for shits and giggles. It would not be fair if the two of them did not get the same punishment.



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  5. #5
    Evil Good RadiantBeam's Avatar
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    I'm agreeing with RB and Elf on this. I'm personally calling for Neir to keep his ban.



  6. #6
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    Not that my vote matters, but it makes sense that the ban would stay for both. To me, anyway.
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  7. #7
    アカシャの蛇 The Serpent of Akasha RacingeR's Avatar
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    My concern doesn't really come from the stalking or the facebook thing, but on him being banned for an off-site offense.

    While I am not going to argue whether he deserves the ban or for how long, I want to know what is going to be BL's new policy on off-site stuff. I mean, if you banned people for things that happened or were said in #notes, a lot of people there would be in trouble.


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    Quote Originally Posted by RacingeR View Post
    My concern doesn't really come from the stalking or the facebook thing, but on him being banned for an off-site offense.

    While I am not going to argue whether he deserves the ban or for how long, I want to know what is going to be BL's new policy on off-site stuff. I mean, if you banned people for things that happened or were said in #notes, a lot of people there would be in trouble.
    I'm pretty sure that, in general, saying things on #notes (or elsewhere) is fine. Obvious attempts to bypass the rules by giving out the personal information of other members off-site knowing the likely response is not.

    The only argument I've heard in favour of him essentially boils down to "well, I know it was wrong, but we must follow the rules to the letter even if that leads to an injust outcome". And, honestly, that argument works no better for Neir than it does for fucking investment bankers or tax dodgers. Sure, it might work when you're talking to a government, but this is not a government. The mods here do not have to stick rigidly to the rules even when the result would be horribly unjust.
    Last edited by Mike1984; June 23rd, 2012 at 02:43 PM.

  9. #9
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    So, are we going to be referring to this as Book Gate from now on?
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    The Tobias-scorngate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satehi View Post
    The Tobias-scorngate.
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    Urge to kill......rising....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
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    My concern was mostly that no actual hacking or illegal means of acquiring information were used here.

    Everything was pieced together from all the private information Mike himself dumped in the forum.

    Mike himself is partially at fault here, a ban is not warranted given nothing illegal transpired.

    A severe warning against stalking would suffice.

    And Mike himself should exercise caution in disclosing things on BL to avoid things like this happening again.




    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elf View Post
    I agree with my husband here.

    This should not have happened, and I am for Neir keeping the one week ban. (I was the one who suggested it in the first place.) Both what Flame and Neir did was grossly wrong and needs to be dealt with in a serious manner. We want our visitors and regulars to feel safe at BL, not that people can give other people information about each other to use for ill gain.

    Neir did not have to post that information, and honestly he should have told one of us Admins or a moderator what Flame had done. He did none of the above and just posted it on the chat for shits and giggles. It would not be fair if the two of them did not get the same punishment.
    There's conflict of interest here, since you are throwing in with your husband, lol.
    Last edited by food; June 23rd, 2012 at 08:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by food View Post
    My concern was mostly that no actual hacking or illegal means of acquiring information were used here.

    Everything was pieced together from all the private information Mike himself dumped in the forum.

    Mike himself is partially at fault here, a ban is not warranted given nothing illegal transpired.

    A severe warning against stalking would suffice.

    And Mike himself should exercise caution in disclosing things on BL to avoid things like this happening again.
    You're entirely missing the point. The issue is not that people went looking for my Facebook account, it's that they passed the link on to other people and, in Neir's case, posted it publically.

    I am, perhaps, at fault for Flame being able to find the account, but I am not in any way responsible for the actions he and Neir took with the information. Further, "nothing illegal took place" is just a cop-out. Neir's actions were clearly malicious, and to let him get away with it just because of a technicality would just encourage bullying and similar antics in the future.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1984 View Post
    You're entirely missing the point. The issue is not that people went looking for my Facebook account, it's that they passed the link on to other people and, in Neir's case, posted it publically.

    I am, perhaps, at fault for Flame being able to find the account, but I am not in any way responsible for the actions he and Neir took with the information. Further, "nothing illegal took place" is just a cop-out. Neir's actions were clearly malicious, and to let him get away with it just because of a technicality would just encourage bullying and similar antics in the future.
    You are missing my point.

    My point is that this whole mess would not have happened if you did not leave a trail of personal information. Heck, it is not a trail, it is a highway.
    Most of the dudes here can find your facebook if they tried, given how liberal you are with dumping them.

    Let this be a painful lesson to you as well.

    And legality is legality. No matter how you rage and butt mad, they did nothing illegal. They traced back to you with the information YOU offered here.
    Last edited by food; June 23rd, 2012 at 09:04 PM.

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    Yeah, shockingly enough, I would rather be able to discuss things with people on the forum without having to cover up basic details like where I went to university and what I do. My username is perhaps poorly-chosen, but changing it now would be pointless, and when I first joined I did not expect to be in a position where it would matter (not to mention that I am extremely uncreative).

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