^When were you under the impression that any character discussion can ignore Sakura's great significance? Not even Tsukihime. Not even Kara no Kyoukai. Notes verse became a hellhole because Shirou failed to save Sakura. She's irreplaceable part of the entire Nasuverse. /trollface
On the subject of akiha, I think what really interests me about her is I am pretty sure she is actually regressing in shiki's presense. Seriously, if you watch her, her bullying is a less like an irritated ojou and more like a scared 8 year old girl who is trying to act like an ojou. Shiki abandoned her, and now that he is back, all her bullying to me is her saying "look at me!" over and over
Hmm.. now that you mentioned it, she did witness the "death" of her "true" brother and took it rather harshly. If her every attempt is to get his attention because if he won't, he's going to wither away someday... I guess it's justified. Indeed, it was a severe traumatic experience.Originally Posted by Tobias
trollbumpingtrollontheshoulder.jpg^When were you under the impression that any character discussion can ignore Sakura's great significance? Not even Tsukihime. Not even Kara no Kyoukai. Notes verse became a hellhole because Shirou failed to save Sakura. She's irreplaceable part of the entire Nasuverse. /trollface
I never claimed that she was a heroine in the classic sense, just that it's meaningless to use that as a criticism of her as a character, because she's not supposed to me. It's like criticising Saber (as a character) for being designed to be unable to have a long-term relationship with Shirou due to not being "alive".
Well, yeah. I have to agree. Although I would love to see Sakura actually kicking ass like the other heroines. But well, besides Ciel my other favorite is Hisui in Tsukihime. If anything she's even more passive (but still no pushover, I guarantee it).
Arguing that Sakura is a badly written character because of the lack of action IS wrong.
I think it's the best if we think about Fate/UBW and HF as two different VN stories building on the same base.
On the other hand I have to agree with lantz that Nasu could've done some foreshadowing and explain some parts on Sakura gradually instead of exploding it right on our faces!
Anyways:
THE FOLLOWING PAGES ARE ABOUT TOHNO AKIHA!Spoiler:
Last edited by willyvereb; March 24th, 2011 at 10:11 AM. Reason: Saving space
I can see his point there, yes. There is some foreshadowing of Sakura's situation, but it's mostly from Rin's side. It would probably have been better to have given Sakura more of an involvement in the first two routes, not least because it would shut up the people who say "Sakura isn't important outside HF", and who think that it's just fine to ignore her there. I understand that Nasu was trying to keep her situation a surprise, but really it would probably have worked better if we cared for Sakura before the start of the route, rather than having to learn to do so during the route.
But, having said that, I don't think he's right that HF is too rushed. I mean, we learnt about Saber for the first time in her route (by default...), and that worked just fine, so I don't see why the same cannot apply to Sakura.
And then we would have three HFs instead of one. Also, we had to learn about Saber in the first route by default. It was her route after all.
Not necessarily. Sakura could have just been a bit more involved in Shirou's life whilst the war was happening, rather than being sent away sometime before the halfway point, and she could have got a little more characterisation (along the same lines as what Rin got in Fate).
Well, yes, but that doesn't in any way reduce the validity of my point....Also, we had to learn about Saber in the first route by default. It was her route after all.
Well, that's right. Nasu took to many bets on the surprise factor an d forgot to give Sakura a stronger presence in Fate and UBW. He pulled it out so nicely with the other characters yet Sakura fell short.
Anyways, excuse me Mike but we should stop this debate. Sakura discussions can go on forever and usually with repeating the same thing after every 5 pages. Let's give lantz a chance to introduce his opinion on other heroines,SO I repeat myself:
THE FOLLOWING PAGES ARE ABOUT TOHNO AKIHA!
NO objections!
Personally, though, I disagree with this, because I don't think it did "fall short". It could, perhaps, have been done better, but it still worked just fine for me.
Surely it's up to Lantz to decide the next topic, and to introduce it. After all, it's his opinions we're supposed to be discussing, not mine or yours....Anyways, excuse me Mike but we should stop this debate. Sakura discussions can go on forever and usually with repeating the same thing after every 5 pages. Let's give lantz a chance to introduce his opinion on other heroines,SO I repeat myself:
Indeed, Akiha acted visibly more childish. First she wanted to show how mature she got but it seemed like just an act later. Also as Shiki spent more time at the Tohno Manison, Akiha became less stern with him.
Nasu managed to make a character that sparks pages upon pages of intense debate. I think that's success there, or an epic troll.
Well, given that it's Nasu we're talking about here, it's most probably both
getting to them buddy. now we're talking about RinEh, why can't we ever talk about akiha or ciel for once, just for novelties sake?
finally someone gets it.Anyways I agree with lantz on that Sakura isn't a heroine. At least by classic sense.
Heroines must be heroic in a sense and it requires a proactive attitude
RIN TIME!
In concept: Rin is the argumentative, childhood friend type of character who also serves as miss exposition. She’s the comical heroine much like Ciel
In practice: It works without her being annoying. Often times this kind of character can be terribly annoying but as with Ciel they didn’t make her the butt of too many joke moments.
The flipside: In Rin’s case it would be all her true feelings. I found at times she got a bit too sappy but it works given the emotional distance she’s had to endure. I wish her h scene would be a bit more so tender instead of the famous jackhammer but that’s my only real complaint.
As a heroine: clearly from fate and UBW good she has Saber in one hand. So I say give the Rin a Bat and let her save the day. Rin was amazing as heroines go never losing stride with Shirou save for a couple of shining scenes that were just there to make him as the main character look awesome.
The issues: Rin would try to deal with the only tangible issue she has (sakura) if (A) she knew about it and (B) could get over the emotionally crippling need to be loved by daddy. The characters in fate have one long crack running through them that are their flaws. It sucks a bit that her problem comes down to at it’s base “LOVE ME!” but that could just be a personal gripe
Final opinion: Rin’s a good heroine and non intrusive as miss exposition. Do I hate her? No. do I like her? Yes however I find her English VA to be the better of the two. Her Japanese VA sound like she couldn’t beat up a poodle
No, I "got" it entirely, I just don't think it's fair or reasonable to criticise Sakura for not being something that she's not designed to be. Sakura is a good heroine in the eroge meaning of the word, and that's all that matters. To attempt to judge her on criteria which do not fit her situation is just plain retarded. It's like judging Rin for not having purple hair because you like purple haired girls.
I said RIN TIME. time for discussing RIN begins NOW
But, if someone doesn't like characters who don't have purple hair, why isn't that a valid reason to like/not like a character? I might not think that's a good standard to judge people, but I can't say that the other person can't use that as their standard.
I'll always adore the school scene where the bodies shock her, up until that point it's hard to admire her strength because she only things of the possibility of her death in the abstract sense, it was then that it was all driven home to her that she was in danger. So even when her knees were shaking her back went ramrod straight, and she still decided to fight.
Totally, totally cool.
Elaborate "Fate" here.clearly from fate and UBW good she has Saber in one hand.
It is, but it's not a valid reason to judge them as a character more generally.
The problem is that Lantz is saying "Sakura is a crappy heroine because she's not pro-active", but that's part of her character and, thus, it's silly to use that as a way to judge how well or otherwise she's written. He's mixing up the standard definition of "heroine" with the eroge definition, and expecting Sakura to fit the first when, in fact, she fits the second.
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