Hmm, just out of curiosity mike but do you think it might have worked if that scene occured earlier?
Hmm, just out of curiosity mike but do you think it might have worked if that scene occured earlier?
Spoiler:
Yes, but you need to give the villain a reason, or else is just bad writing or a children cartoon.Originally Posted by nitewind
Oh I know that. But there are still limits to what you can do with them in terms of characterizations.
Spoiler:
Not really, because the only way he could have not crossed the Moral Event Horizon yet is if you don't actually know him well enough to understand it....
Oh, the guy is far beyond the Moral Event Horizon, just like Kotomine and his basement of peeled orphan. The twist is showing HOW nasty villains turned out as they did. Their story doesn't have to necessarily make the readers cry; sometimes, it only makes villains more DISTURBING, because the readers can on some level relate to them. Or making them more pitiful in the end: for all the monstrosity, on the inside they're broken, crazy wreaks lashing out at everyone, like the real SHIKI.
Don't worry, Roa's boss is NOT to be admired or anything. If you are rooting for him to win once you learn his plot, you have massive problems. But the reasons behind his behavior will be more developed than 'I'm evil'. Even Complete Monsters can have some level of depths.
Not entirely. Had we been introduced to the more sympathetic sides of his backstory both before he did all the crap he did and in a more compelling way, the end result would have been a certain bit of sympathy left over for the guy.
The way Nasu did it in HF was poorly timed, convoluted, and generally unappealing. It was like the old "it's all society's fault!" gimmick that a murderer says once he's on trial, and a very bad one at that. The guy was barely shown to be affected by his tragic past until the very end, which makes it even worse. You want a backstory to be effective? Make sure that it very visible.
- - - Updated - - -
Yes, but only if that was purely the reason, and it almost never is. Character deaths are very powerful literary tools, and they cause a wide array of secondary effects even if the primary goal didn't have to be perpetrated that way. Deaths can bring about emotional reactions in the readers, character development, plot advancement, tone shifts, the theme of the story. The list goes on. That's why deaths are a heavy device. Hit one, and you can get a few more along the way.
I'm not convinced, honestly, not after what he did. Plus, explaining all that at the beginning wouldn't have worked with the way the story is.
Maybe, but it would have made Zouken a more memorable villain, comparing to the orthers Big Bads ,Gil and Kotomine, he was a pretty weak villain, with a more sympathetic, or better implemented backstory, he would be a better character.
Gil and Kotomine are just as mostrous as Zouken, perhaps even more (they do evil things for fun, while Zouken is more about pragmatism than malice), but they have a sympathetic backstory and are all around awesome and Zouken sucks.
It would have certainly been far better to have drawn it out over the course of the game rather than stuck it in as a footnote near the end.
There have been some pretty monstrous villains out there that I've felt genuinely sympathetic or even sorry for, even after all that they did. Araya Souren and Rau Le Creuset come to mind.
I didn't think he was a "weak" villain at all. He did the job he was supposed to do (which is to be hateable, basically) very well....
What? Since when does pragmatism make the fact that you have absolutely zero morals and perform henious acts any less bad?Gil and Kotomine are just as mostrous as Zouken, perhaps even more (they do evil things for fun, while Zouken is more about pragmatism than malice), but they have a sympathetic backstory and are all around awesome and Zouken sucks.
At least Gil has some morals (albeit rather twisted ones), and Kotomine was simply born broken.
People don't panic when things are all part of the plan... even if the plan is horrifying!
Yeah, well, I don't think that way. To me, the fact that all the shit that is happening is "part of the plan" only makes things more scary. Indeed, I'm rather sceptical of any "plan"....
Yes, generic evil villain number 4, nothing special.
I think I have not expressed myself correctly, I meant that Zouken has an objective to accomplish, he never does anything out of malice, while Gil and Kotomine kick puppies because it is fun, and yet they are far more likeable than Zouken.What? Since when does pragmatism make the fact that you have absolutely zero morals and perform henious acts any less bad?
At least Gil has some morals (albeit rather twisted ones), and Kotomine was simply born broken.
And Gil morals are perfectly logical when you remember that he is an invincible god-king from 6000 years ago.
Well, aside from the fact that Zouken does get malicious at times (particularly towards Kariya), the fact that he's seeking an objective doesn't make him any less hateable for torturing a young child. Also, Gil has an "objective", and I also don't really recall seeing him "kicking puppies for fun". He's mostly not that bad unless you happen to irritate him or are in his way.
Well, yes, exactly....And Gil morals are perfectly logical when you remember that he is an invincible god-king from 6000 years ago.
His "job" was little better than Shinji's "job": be an evil, evil villain that is literally only there so we can hate them because they have little characterization other than being evil. Did I forget to mention "evil"? Evil. Both he and Shinji were little more than mustache-twirling villains.
I know, I'm agreeing with you. I'm saying that while the other villains kick dogs for fun, Zouken doesn't, and even so he is still less likeable than Gil or Kotomine.
He wanted to rape Saber and to see her breaking under the weight of her ideals, that's pretty evil on my book and he wanted to it do for giggles.Also, Gil has an "objective", and I also don't really recall seeing him "kicking puppies for fun". He's mostly not that bad unless you happen to irritate him or are in his way.
Last edited by Guy; September 11th, 2012 at 08:09 PM.
Which is basically what I've been saying/checking to make sure it's not.
Spoiler:
Yes, but that was the only job he really accomplished, being hatable. That's a pretty weak villain. No artistry, no flair, no sympathy, no moral challenge, nothing...interesting. Just a man, a plan, and a box of tools to get it done, all of it meant to disgust us. He's not monstrous enough to make us terrified, but he isn't human enough to make us empathize.
Weak villain. Very much so.
Last edited by Riven; September 11th, 2012 at 10:58 PM.
At the end of the day Zouken is just a walking worm. Something on the level of a comic book villain. I'm not surprised his attempt at being played up as being human fell flat when he's so out there.
If anything, Zero did Zouken right by having him play the role of the villain up even more by having him just want to make Kariya's life miserable. Stay Night didn't give him enough moments where he's just an out and out asshole. That's what he's missing.
Not everyone has to be a character to emphasize with.
Likewise, from what I see of this story's villain, I think it'd just weaken them if it turns out they had a dark and troubled past and or persecution complex that drove them to this. Some people are just better off being done up as abominations that you need to put down and fast.
Last edited by VelspertheCat; September 11th, 2012 at 11:20 PM.
Spoiler:
Good villains come in two flavors: Monstrous and Human.
Monstrous villains have little redeeming qualities. However, they're terrifying to the bone, original and somewhat artistic in design, and engage in terror that is both implicitly and explicitly disturbing to where it keeps you from going to sleep at night.
Human villains have either fallen from grace or have a reason for their actions that hits very close to home. You can understand them, empathize with them, even agree with them in some respects. Though their methods are painful to watch, they sometimes almost feel justified in doing it. The way they're structured is almost closer than the protagonist's best friend at times. They awaken every emotion within the audience, and their message remains in you far after the credits roll.
Zouken is some awkward stepchild in the middle, unable to choose.
Reply With Quote
