F/SN Complete Material 3 page translation, confirmation needed about 3rd Grail War

[Mike1984]

The thing with the Einzberns is that they hate asking for outside help. That's why I'm not having them as the main suspects. Nothing to do with their evilness.

Yeah, but evilness is kind-of a prerequisite....

The Finnish higher classes had already been allied with Imperial Germany in the 1917 Civil War (this wasn't Nazi Germany, of course).

Exactly, Imperial Germany is not Nazi Germany. The two are very different.

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However, Nazism was a workers' movement. Populist. Like communism it primarily relied on the masses and had little in common with the aristocracy. Also, like communism, it seeked to replace traditional focuses of loyalty. Hitler and many of the men who went into high positions under Nazism were primarily working-class individuals. I could see the Einzberns being Junkers under the German Empire, if they were Prussian, but Nazi Germany and Imperial Germany were very different. Hell under Nazi Germany they probably would've been persecuted due to being aristocracy. Yes the SS contained some people who were nobility and many nobles did join, but it was primarily a lower-class movement. This TV Tropes page says it better.

The Nazis were more of a middle-class movement, really, although they did appeal to the masses. The nobility wasn't their base, but nor were they particularly hostile to it.

[terraablaze]

Lots of different people sided with the Nazis, not all of them baby eating evil either. Considering the Japanese lack the rancor towards the Nazis that most Westerners do I'm not seeing your argument. It seems pretty clear Kiritsugu was the first time they asked for help. And it can't be the French master. So unless it's some unknown entity the Eldefelts seem like the best choice. I'm sure they've done way worse then make unsavoury political allies in the past being magi and all.

[I3uster]

Uh, they weren't really a middle-class movement.

NSDAP

Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei
(National-socialist German worker's party)

[Mcjon01]

Pretty much all established magi families are elitist aristocrats, so by that logic no regular Master would have sought Nazi help. Yet someone did.

I think the logic here is probably more along the lines of, "This war happened during WWII, how can it not have Nazis? It's too awesome to pass up. We can just handwave it with Hitler's love of the occult like everybody else!"

[Mike1984]

Uh, they weren't really a middle-class movement.

NSDAP

Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei
(National-socialist German worker's party)

Yeah, I hate it when people use the name of the party to define what they are (although it's more commonly used to call them "socialist"). By the same logic, North Korea is a democracy....

The name of the party was a relic from the days before Hitler took over, as well as a way of gathering support. They certainly did appeal to the working class, but they also appealed to middle class and upper class people who were afraid of the Communists taking over.

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Lots of different people sided with the Nazis, not all of them baby eating evil either. Considering the Japanese lack the rancor towards the Nazis that most Westerners do I'm not seeing your argument. It seems pretty clear Kiritsugu was the first time they asked for help. And it can't be the French master.

There's a bit of a difference between being a mook in the Nazi army and fighting to hand the Nazis the ability to wish for anything they desire, particularly when you're a magus who, thus, surely should know better.

Also, whilst the Japanese don't hate the Nazis like we did (they were allies, after all...), that doesn't mean that they're not well aware of what utter assholes they were.

So unless it's some unknown entity the Eldefelts seem like the best choice. I'm sure they've done way worse then make unsavoury political allies in the past being magi and all.

Honestly, I'm about 90% sure it is an "unknown entity". As others have pointed out, none of the magi families are the sort to ally with the Nazis, even the evil ones. They want the Grail for theirselves, and the Nazis would never allow that. Plus, it wouldn't be an "honourable battle" if you're sending in an army of German soldiers.

[terraablaze]

Why would a magus hand over the Grail to the Nazis? Wouldn't the default assumption being the magus using them and then betraying them because you know they just got a hold of a wish granting vessel that does whatever they want? It's not like it would even be difficult, kill your scrub Nazi allies in the end with your Servant that they can't hurt and then have it obtain the Grail.

[aldeayeah]

The 3rd Grail War was a Indiana Jones movie.

It is known.

[Five_X]

Why would a magus hand over the Grail to the Nazis? Wouldn't the default assumption being the magus using them and then betraying them because you know they just got a hold of a wish granting vessel that does whatever they want? It's not like it would even be difficult, kill your scrub Nazi allies in the end with your Servant that they can't hurt and then have it obtain the Grail.

Eh, my Third War fic-in-planning involves the Nazis hiring a magus who has no real qualms about Nazism, and sending an SS officer to ensure that the magus keeps in line with the goals as ordered. Instead of there just being a troupe of random Nazis, it's just one man holding a short leash, preparing for whatever eventuality.

He's also one of the most popular characters in his MPII appearances.

[Mcjon01]

Why would they need to hire a magus? The Nazi ranks were full of magi. Seriously, they were just lousy with them. Haven't you ever watched a movie? This is pretty basic stuff.

[mewarmo990]

The 3rd Grail War was a Indiana Jones movie.

It is known.

It is known.

[Mike1984]

Why would a magus hand over the Grail to the Nazis? Wouldn't the default assumption being the magus using them and then betraying them because you know they just got a hold of a wish granting vessel that does whatever they want? It's not like it would even be difficult, kill your scrub Nazi allies in the end with your Servant that they can't hurt and then have it obtain the Grail.

I don't think the Nazis were quite that stupid, though....

Most likely, the Nazis sent a Nazi magus, probably one that wasn't really strongly affiliated with the Association.

[Petrikow]

You'd think they'd send someone from the Thule Society.

[Mcjon01]

Probably, they sent a lot of Nazi magi. And used the Spear of Destiny to summon the soldier that pierced Jesus' side as a Lancer.

[terraablaze]

I don't think the Nazis were quite that stupid, though.... Most likely, the Nazis sent a Nazi magus, probably one that wasn't really strongly affiliated with the Association.

I feel like a Nazi magus might be an oxymoron. Nazism and the goals of a magus just seem incompatible. At best you might have amateur magic users. As well as magi who are working alongside them that are just making use of their resources.

[Seika]

A core tenet of magecraft: discovering the Root.
A core element of Nazism: Aryan superiority.
A core element of Tōko's search for the Root: achieving the original/perfect human body.

That actually looks quite compatible.

[Mike1984]

I feel like a Nazi magus might be an oxymoron. Nazism and the goals of a magus just seem incompatible.

Really? Why?

Magi are pretty much stated to be rather racist (they look down on Rin for being Japanese), and are very conservative.

At best you might have amateur magic users. As well as magi who are working alongside them that are just making use of their resources.

Well, it's not like having "magic users" in the war is unheard of....

[Mcjon01]

Not to mention, all the magi that don't really seem to care about high-minded ideals at all. Like, for instance, two of the three founding families behind the Grail War, whose entire motivation is "fuck those other two families". And this being the Nasuverse, the Thule Society probably was an actual mystic society promoting Nazism, that may or may not have had any connection to the Clock Tower at all. (And it's not like only magi at the Clock Tower doing things the Clock Tower way are real magi or something.)

[terraablaze]

Nazis love technology, Magi hate it. Nazis are all about the Fuher, magi are all about themselves and their family. Also the Nazis aligned themselves with the Catholic church. More importantly though is how the Nazis liked to get there hands on everything and then modify it to make it more "Arayan", whereas Magi are about searching for the untainted original.

I mean I guess it could happen but they would probably be heretics. I sort of imagine a Nazi magus as a magic Red Skull. Pays lip service until he has enough power.

[Mcjon01]

Implying that there aren't magi families out there devoting all of their immense resources to the development of science and technology solely to fuck over the True Magic users by killing their True Magic. That's the kind of dicks magi are!

[Mashina]

"Sehai-kun Sehai kun, my people are being badly treated by the other countries!"

*Living-Space Maker!*

"You should just kill all of the people of the other countries."
"Thank you Sehai-kun!"