Standardized Servant Rankings (Create-a-Servant)(fanfic only, not Nasu's true system)

[TheRoar]

Then on that day UBW would become an EX rank phantasm. Today is not that day. Ex rank already covers what you're trying to say it doesn't. I'm not sure if troll or just being difficult.

Not troll, but I accept the possiblity that I'm missing something here. I'll think about it.

[Five_X]

This thread makes me cry.

[TheRoar]

I'm sorry to hear that.

I love the Nasuverse; I love it so much that I want to make it better.

But it's not as if I'm editing history here; this is a work of fiction, and you're perfectly free and capable of using the standard Nasuverse while I work on Nasuverse 2.0.
Just think of it as an alternate dimension in which stuff works differently.

[I3uster]

We just fear someone will use this stuff and treat it as canon.

We hate it. KUYASHII

[Five_X]

I doubt you can actually make it better than a guy who poured likely a quarter of his life into making this work for his own ends. The system isn't the problem; the problem is that you simply don't understand it and you're trying to fix what ain't broke.

[TheRoar]

We just fear someone will use this stuff and treat it as canon.

We hate it. KUYASHII

I hold absolutely zero love for the concept of canon. This is fiction, not history, and if you believe a change will make it more interesting, you should go ahead and do it.
Isn't this the whole point of fanfiction, after all?

That being said...
"OH NOES!! Ea and Avalon have a different rank that might make more sense while still doing exactly the same things they did before, THE HORROR!! The story doesn't make sense anymore! The Nasuverse is ruined!"

- - - Updated - - -

I doubt you can actually make it better than a guy who poured likely a quarter of his life into making this work for his own ends. The system isn't the problem; the problem is that you simply don't understand it and you're trying to fix what ain't broke.

I accept that possiblity.
But I'm not ruining anything for you. Nasu 1.0 is still around, and I'm not gonna apply version 2.0 in other people's fanfics.

[ImperialOrder]

[Allon Marton]

Wow... This led to an odder set of replies than I had expected, and someone felt the need to add the words"fanfic only, not Nasu's true system"...when I am sure I stated that these were just my ideas at least 3 times just to make sure that was clear, let me see, 1-"Please understand that these are simply my thoughts and opinions and should someone have a good argument are completely open to change and/or alteration." 2-"may not be in any way compliant with what we have seen in cannon and are, much as was stated before, merely my ideas and opinions and how we could make this work" 3-"Well those are my ideas, and opinions on this, if you have any other ideas, opinions, or questions which you would like to share I would be happy to listen and possibly either add them in, or clarify as needed to make this work as well as possible."...yeah exactly 3 times. I think I also stated that it was not even attempting to be an absolute method of stating a sheet, and was just an idea or guide that people could use if they were unsure of a fair rank for something and wanted some advice.

And no I don't understand all Nasuverse's more subtle workings, which is why I made this to try and put it into terms I could understand in order to make sheets faster.
Truly you have the oddest fears if you think someone will read this in depth, and try to use it as canon, and somehow miss all of the warnings that it is not, in fact, canon at all.

Also thanks for moving this, I saw 2 Create-a-servant threads on this site in, different sections, and was not sure which one I should put this in. As you can most likely guess, I don't go here often.

[SeiKeo]

Truly you have the oddest fears if you think someone will read this in depth, and try to use it as canon, and somehow miss all of the warnings that it is not, in fact, canon at all.

They've, shockingly, done it before.

[Strife ❤️]

I saw this when it was first posted but didn't reply at the time.

The stat system is completely broken, it doesn't work that way, the worst servant parameter is meant to be the pinnacle of human ability. I didn't get further than that.

[Allon Marton]

Yeah, I am aware that servants are stronger than humans...that was stated in there too. "Please be aware that for the purposes of this system these ranks are explained in human standards to ensure easy comparison to the characters in life, and are not indicative of a servants abilities, a comparison of a servants abilities in contrast to a humans will be given below." And I gave a rough estimate of how I thought they might compare as well.

[TheRoar]

Oh, I should make it clear that at present, my 2.0 ideas and Allon's are not the same. I just sorta... watched over his thread while he was away. Yeah, that's it.

... Sorry for the two-page hijack. (︶︹︺)

[Allon Marton]

Oh, I should make it clear that at present, my 2.0 ideas and Allon's are not the same. I just sorta... watched over his thread while he was away. Yeah, that's it.

... Sorry for the two-page hijack. (︶︹︺)

Meh that is fine, thanks for watching over it. I honestly was hoping someone with a problem with this would take the time to give their advice on how to make it better...but so far it seems they are rather unwilling to do so. Worse still, most of their problems are either a result of them disliking the concept of this for some reason I don't totally get, or them not reading it properly and missing some key statement made within it... rather disappointing really.

[TheRoar]

Meh that is fine, thanks for watching over it. I honestly was hoping someone with a problem with this would take the time to give their advice on how to make it better...but so far it seems they are rather unwilling to do so. Worse still, most of their problems are either a result of them disliking the concept of this for some reason I don't totally get, or them not reading it properly and missing some key statement made within it... rather disappointing really.

I feel you.

I'm going to bed now, but tomorrow I'm gonna give you some constructive criticism.

[Allon Marton]

There are about two or three main technical issues I can immediately see with this:

First, Servants parameters for things like Strength, Agility, and so on are inherently beyond human. Without magical aid, no human can even reach the equivalent of E-rank Servant parameters.

Second, class skills aren't set in stone, so to speak. You can't exactly say "this rank does this" because even in class skills, there can be some minor differences. Not to mention the fact that Jeanne D'arc from Apocrypha has EX Magic Resistance, and her rank in the skill specifically states that only she is protected by it - that's directly opposed to your form.

Third, you're giving exact measurements and rank descriptions to personal skills. That's an absolute contradiction. We now from canon that two personal skills can have different meanings and effects at the same rank, shown in the Battle Continuation skills of Lancer and Berserker, as well as Assassin and Berserker's Eye of the Mind skills. You can't say that "this rank does this" for personal skills, simply because they're personal.

For the first...yes... servants are stronger than humans, that was stated.

For the second, yes you are right they are not set in stone, and no my abilities don't always adhere to canon, this was also stated, but I feel that there should at least be something to compare the ranks to so that you can try to make sure you are at least putting the correct rank on it for the ability granted.

For the third, this is not an absolute thing, and was never meant to be, for example, I gave examples on all of the Territory creation ranks, as well as their abilities, and yet their are almost certainly servant with territories that do more than just make them cast spells cheaper, and yet I can not even begin to predict what those abilities may be, so I gave an idea of what it may do, and I just have to hope they can use those generalizations to determine what rank their servant should have in it. Did I try to make it as exact as possible despite this? Yes, because it was originally meant for my own use, and I like solid numbers, it is just who I am. However it is impossible for this to be perfect (it is based on a story that uses concepts as attacks, so variation is almost guaranteed to be present in almost every battle, I still don't totally get why Caliburn was able to kill Berserker without really activating an active ability like Excalibur and Gáe Bolg do. OR why Francis Drake is a rider with no riding skill, and also possess the single most infuriatingly unexplained skill I have ever seen, honestly I don't see why Rider even has Pioneer of the Stars, I don't see anything in the legend that would grant it.), and I just have to hope it can just be useful enough for people to adapt it to their own uses, and/or give them ideas of their own.

People aren't all idiots who need to be lost in the woods before they can start trying to find their own way, so I am afraid to say I fail to see why the mere presence of this seems to fill you with such fear.

[The Curious Fan]

This thread makes me cry.

You made Five cry, Roar and Allon, I hope you're happy with yourselves.

We just fear someone will use this stuff and treat it as canon.

We hate it. KUYASHII

50% chance someone will IMO.

[Allon Marton]

You made Five cry, Roar and Allon, I hope you're happy with yourselves.



50% chance someone will IMO.

A little yes, I have always disliked people who complain about something without having read the material. Like people who say the twilight books suck without having read them, is it true? Yes. Is their opinion on the matter worth listening to? Not so much. If someone here had taken the time to actually read it properly (not counting each individual skill), found a problem, informed me of it, and tried to make some attempt to fix it or otherwise make it better, that would be one thing, but so far this has honestly been rather childish and greatly disappointing, especially as I put it here to try and make it better.

And who cares if someone does? It isn't your problem what others do in their spare time, just as it isn't their problem what you do in your spare time (So long as what your all doing in your spare time does not cause harm to another).

[qwertyfatcat]

I just read your standardized servant guide, and I feel that its either underwhelming and overwhelming in some cases. Overall, it is not bad.

I have to agree with some of the others who posted earlier that this does go against nasuverse rules. However, I do find that sometimes it is worth it.

Finally, an actual scaling for chinese martial arts that isn't "A is the bare minimum" due to how the level of chinese martial arts can varie greatly, so that I thank you.

However, I do disagree with how monstrous strength gives you such ridiculous stat boosts. Giving a total of 4 attack boosts for one skill seems way too much considering how powerful alondite's effect was in proportion to it's rank. The fact that it gives innate magic resist like that as well would make whichever servant hold this skill have as much MR as saber. If I were to give a suggestion, at least halve the bonuses. It would still be extremely powerful and it wouldn't be as crazy as this stat boost.

[themasterwarlord]

A little yes, I have always disliked people who complain about something without having read the material. Like people who say the twilight books suck without having read them, is it true? Yes. Is their opinion on the matter worth listening to? Not so much. If someone here had taken the time to actually read it properly (not counting each individual skill), found a problem, informed me of it, and tried to make some attempt to fix it or otherwise make it better, that would be one thing, but so far this has honestly been rather childish and greatly disappointing, especially as I put it here to try and make it better.

No offense, but I'm also one of the people who consider it better if the ranks are vague instead of 'standardizing' it with fanon stats. But if you insist of doing so anyway, then let me point out some things for you. At least then you cannot say that everybody is only complaining. Not all though, because I'm still a lurker, and lurkers are lazy to write posts.

B This is now above what a normal human could do, to get here you would need to either be something more than human, or have your skills augmented by something, (i.e magic, chakra, a super-soldier project, etc...) please note however that in most cases this assumes these people are already around C rank, and that these factors are boosting those stats by one rank to well above what any ordinary human could ever hope to achieve. Essentially this means that while having something like chakra or some other boost is necessary to reach this rank, possessing something like chakra does not mean that they have a B rank on that merit alone.

This should be the description of E. *reads Human vs Servant below* That is, except if these descriptions are for human stats, which is weird (and shouldn't have existed) because this rank system should've been made only for Servants.

The next factor to take into account would be their deeds and actions, this factor would generally give a small boost (+) to the related parameter,

+ is a short-burst multiplier, not a small additive boost lower than the rank after. IIRC, E+ is not stronger than D, but B+ is stronger than A. Ask the others for the specific value.

E- ~ E ~ E+ ~ D- ~ D ~ D+ ~ C- ~ C ~ C+ ~ B- ~ B ~ B+ ~ A- ~ A ~ A+
--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_--_E- ~ E ~ E+ ~ D- ~ D ~ D+ ~ C- ~ C ~ C+ ~ B- ~ B ~ B+ ~ A- ~ A ~ A+

If you made two sets of ranks like these then it wouldn't be a standardized rank, because there's no description for the second set. The fact that the descriptions did not describe the second set (you know, the ones actually for Servants) also means that this is not a Servant system.

Also, the first set shouldn't have existed anyway, because there's no such thing as human rank system (yet) in Nasuverse, at least as far as I know.

EX

Having an EX rank means that the stat in question cannot be categorized by the system. The nature of this description means that there's way more than 1 description of EX based on why it cannot be categorized, and not all of them are stronger than A. For example describing a cube and a wave. Both cannot be described with the radius of a circle, but because of wildly different reasons. Also, you can't really compare them with the area of a circle with radius A, as cubes are 3D and waves doesn't have an area.

There are more than this, but like I said, I'm a lurker and lurkers are lazy.

[Seika]

alondite's

Arondight. Or, better, Aroundight, but the former has become more widespread and was probably Nasu/Gen's intention.

50% chance someone will IMO.

90%+. People find the Nasuverse confusing and are also likely to want to find a quick reference for skill descriptions. Both lead to the finding this and carelessly using it without checking context.

no my abilities don't always adhere to canon, this was also stated, but I feel that there should at least be something to compare the ranks to

Do you see the problem here? Great, you've given a point of comparison, but it's a meaningless one if it doesn't fit within canon. That's not helping people, it's making it worse (especially so if they get confused by discrepancies). Imagine I made a huge post for some mecha anime, being very specific about fuel-types and heights and armaments and all that, 90% of which had never been seen. Even if I kept to roughly the power-levels of the show and said my specificity was useful for comparisons, I'd still rightly be told to shove off, because it'd be made up.

And who cares if someone does?

In this specific case, we care because there's enough misinformation spread around the Nasuverse already, and we prefer people to be discussing our passion without being misinformed. It's better for them, it's better for us (since we'd really rather not be continually correcting people more than we already are) and it's better for Nasuverse discussion generally. I'm not saying it's your fault in any way, just that it's what's going to happen.

Other issues this has are entirely separate. Here's a starting list:

General

• Needs an editor for sentence structure and spelling in various places; I'll pick up on spelling at some points, but it still needs a going over for various other issues - sometimes puctuation, sometimes grammar, sometimes just bad sentence flow.
• From a conceptual level, this is already in a difficult position: the Nasuverse paradigm for skills does not often admit to specificity. You've done a lot of that, from citing percentages to giving very specific examples of potential effects. It makes me feel like this is for a very different work with a different creator.
• I'd also take issue with this being helpful to potential Servant creators - having all the skills marked out for you restricts you and limits the breadth of your imagination. The best Servants come from the most creative writers.
• Taking 'High Thaumaturgy' as a concrete thing throughout where we've never had indication of such.
• Why does everything have to have an EX-rank anyway? EX is special, and trying to make all skills have a potential EX rank makes life very difficult for yourself, leads to unconvincing extra effects because you've tried to increase the power, still doesn't work because you've mainly shoved up the power from previous examples instead of turning it into 'so powerful comparisons are rendered meaningless' and rather devalues it.

Specific

• Riding allowing Dragons where it shouldn't.
• It's = it is; its = possessive for it; its' does not exist and you should not use it.
• A random example in the middle of Charisma which you've done for no other skill.
• Keeping the flavour of 'you only truly learn this at A rank' for Chinese Martial Arts whilst giving E, D, C and B ranks.
• Planes of existence are based in ideas of geometry, not geography. 'Plains' is therefore incorrect.
• The secondary part of D-rank Disengage is better than all subsequent ranks, since the others reset the battle to turn 1, whilst D-rank gives the Servant an active advantage.
• Divinity as a whole is borked because you've misunderstood 'the World' and 'Gaia'. Servants are entities who have died, whose cessation of existence is shown by the Akashic Records. It's this contradiction which crushes them, not the spirit of the planet. Akasha is separate and greater than Gaia. Also, even Archetype doesn't get to just erase anything which stands in her way and she's the planet's embodiment. Gaia can't directly eliminate what's outside of its sphere, whether that's humanity and Akasha or the alien ORT. Hence, Marble Phantasm can't be used directly on humans etc.
• EAM suddenly introduces the concept of fighters themselves having ranks. Wut? You've just bolted a whole load of crap onto this skill without any canon justification whatsoever, to the extent that it takes up more space than the canon effect. Also absurdly specific again.
• Eye for Art sometimes lets you use other people's Noble Phantasms? Grates, grates a lot. Lancelot has an entire A++ Noble Phantasm to grant him something similar, and it's coming as a bonus for being incredibly interested in art? Blech.
• HSDW are a different way of casting, but it is not a fundamental alteration. All the MR-bypassing stuff is totally unsupported (all the more so since Kanshō and Bakuya, C-rank NPs with simple anti-magic properties, were deflecting Caster's spells whilst in the heart of her territory).
• Librarian of Started Knowledge should be of Stored knowledge.
• I really shouldn't need to explain to you why Magecraft EX is silly. True Magic is an absolutely separate thing which should involve its own skill.
• Monstrous Strength reads like a D&D spell instead of a Nasuverse skill. I'd probably applaud the MR additions as a creative addition in a Servant sheet which used higher ranks than Medusa has, but I'm iffy on it being included here, since we don't have evidence for Monstrous Beasts automatically getting MR. Also, you've completely ignored an aspect of the skill - the probability of turning into the monster whose strength you're recreating.
• Mystic Eyes are very varied, and the eyes themselves are probably the determining factor rather than skill in use. If you must extrapolate all the various ranks, it would be more appropriate to focus on the level of effects that might be expected instead of arbitrarily deciding that they'll have time limits before operation. Remember, even Ilya's temporarily-created Charm eyes snared Shirō almost immediately. Also, suggestion's -> suggestions.
• Original One is borked: the entire point of Gaia's backup is that it operates on scaling (this is why Gilgamesh causes Arc so much trouble). Those lower ranks just aren't how it works. In general, though, this is a skill which is just meant to show an aspect of a character without having to use up an NP slot - it has no business being given different ranks anyway. If we did have a skill called 'Gaia's Support' or some such, preferable extrapolations might focus on the delay before back-up (as shown in Arc vs Ciel in Tsukihime), or how much power Gaia is willing to spare before it decides you're not worth the investment.
• Pioneer is another one where lower ranks are very difficult to support. By definition, all Heroic Spirits have changed fate in some way - it's a requirement. And they aren't all running around with low-level PotS.
• For Protection of the Fairies, see Monstrous Strength re: this feels like a D&D spell.