Shirou's messed up summoning.

[terraablaze]

OK, let's see if I can clarify this for you.

The Einzbern Holy Grail is NOT the Third. It is a ploy to re-discovered the Third that the Einzberns lost generations ago.

The Einzbern Holy Grail itself is a wish-granting machine that is colourless (neither good nor evil). It grants all wishes, good or bad. However, the kid that is Avenger bears a curse called "All of the World's Evil", and because he is the bearer of this curse, he becomes a hero. When Avenger returned to the Grail back in the 3rd Holy Grail War, the curse "All the World's Evil" tainted the Einzbern Holy Grail and the Grail itself began to follow the command of the curse. The unfortunate part is that "All the World's Evil" wishes to kill all humans, and the Grail grants all wishes. The original colourless Grail now actually has an over-riding directive, and this is why no matter what you wish on the Grail, the result will involve people dying gruesome deaths.

As to the part you quoted from Ilya, it is really simple. Angra Mainyu is "humanity's ultimate wish for true Evil". At the end of HF, the tainted Grail is filled and ready to execute this wish by granting a true form to this wish for true evil. Also, the Grail gives this evil incarnate the appropriate power to match.

What Ilya meant in her statement is that, the Grail did not really execute the Third. The Einzbern DID NOT recover the Third Magic here. The Grail simply granted the wish of Angra Mainyu (which is "humanity's wish for true evil). However, the RESULT of this wish is identical to what the Third could have achieved.

In short, Avenger/Angra Mainyu/"All the World's Evil" is a wish, and the Grail is a wish-granting machine. Avenger is a evil spirit/curse that wants a form (the "attribute" Ilya was talking about), and the Grail grants it a form. In the end, you get the result of the Third, without actually doing the Third.

The whole "Avenger using the Third" doesn't mean "Avenger casts the Third". It means Avenger hijacks the Grail and gives itself form, achieving a result comparable to "Avenger casts the Third".

Hope this helps.

I thought it might be something this (as I believe I stated in one of my earlier posts), or rather I guess I thought that was a possibility. Still seems kind of odd though, your statement makes it sound like all the Holy Grail needs to do is grant a wish to achieve the Third Magic and that is it. It seems reasonable to suggest from the dialogue that something special about Avenger allowed it to achieve something it normally would not be able to even if someone else wished for it.

[food]

No, the point of the dialogue is not that Avenger is special. The point is that Ilya wants Rin to know that the Einzberns did not succeed in recovering the Third, and the incarnation of Angra Mainyu is not the Einzbern's doing (not intentionally). In other words, Ilya wants Rin to know that there's NOTHING the Einzberns can do about this whole mess.

In addition, Einzberns don't want this either. They want the Third Magic (the process), not a result of the Third (the result).

The true reason that the Einzberns run this whole farce is that they want to punch a hole to Akasha and recover the Third. Rin said in the prologue that five magi have reached Akasha, and they are the true magicians. I guess simply "wish you know the Third" will not be enough. Or, if the Grail has enough mana to make a miraculous wish, it will show you the way to Akasha anyways (simple, like you said).

Either way, the Einzberns want to win the war.

[Tangerang]

Although it may be difficult to win the war if your representative is the vessel itself?

Wasn't there something about them becoming obsessed with the idea of winning the grail war to the point of losing sight of their original goal? Or am I mixing it up with something else?

[Tobias]

No, I think that's right. Using ilya as a master was something like " the einzberns had been humiliated after not winning one Grail war, so they used ilya even though winning would have meant they gain no benefit. ....or something?"

[Cruor]

Although it may be difficult to win the war if your representative is the vessel itself?

Wasn't there something about them becoming obsessed with the idea of winning the grail war to the point of losing sight of their original goal? Or am I mixing it up with something else?

That's Zouken.

[food]

The Einzberns never lost their sight, it is Zouken who lost his sight.

The Einzbern's head is immortal, and he has all the time in the world to chill and figure out ways to recover his True Magic. Zouken, on the other hand, is running on fumes. Ilya represents the Einzberns' most powerful bid at winning the war and recovering their True Magic. Ilya is their best Grail yet, and in addition she is great Master material.


EDIT:

I see the concern you are raising though.

If Ilya loses her sense of self and humanity as the Grail, who's going to "pick up" the Third or make the wish?

Good question, I don't know the answer.

However, I think that's where the Einzbern Maids come in. The Einzberns ain't no fools.

[terraablaze]

No, the point of the dialogue is not that Avenger is special. The point is that Ilya wants Rin to know that the Einzberns did not succeed in recovering the Third, and the incarnation of Angra Mainyu is not the Einzbern's doing (not intentionally). In other words, Ilya wants Rin to know that there's NOTHING the Einzberns can do about this whole mess.

In addition, Einzberns don't want this either. They want the Third Magic (the process), not a result of the Third (the result).

The true reason that the Einzberns run this whole farce is that they want to punch a hole to Akasha and recover the Third. Rin said in the prologue that five magi have reached Akasha, and they are the true magicians. I guess simply "wish you know the Third" will not be enough. Or, if the Grail has enough mana to make a miraculous wish, it will show you the way to Akasha anyways (simple, like you said).

Either way, the Einzberns want to win the war.

The problem with that argument is Ilya's response to Rin's question:
"……? So in short, it's a monster that can materialize?
It's someone who can embody the Third Sorcery even if the Great Holy Grail doesn't?"

And than Ilya says yes
She later says he is an embodiment of people's wishes.
There obviously seems to be something special about him.

Is there some nuance in the original Japanese I am not getting, this is why I asked deadfish what it said.

[Altima of the Gates]

EDIT:

I see the concern you are raising though.

If Ilya loses her sense of self and humanity as the Grail, who's going to "pick up" the Third or make the wish?

Good question, I don't know the answer.

However, I think that's where the Einzbern Maids come in. The Einzberns ain't no fools.

Those maids are her caretakers, and Leysritt is the Dress of Heaven, which is used in some way to support the ritual. Unless you're thinking Sella had a role to play in case they did win....that is an interesting theory. Did she show up when Ilya (Berserker's route) 'won' the war in UC? I forget.

[food]

Nasu actually answered this question in the Q&A of CM3 when he discussed Ilya's capacity as a Minor Grail.

Ilya is able to maintain herself after she absorbs 4 Servants. Absorbing more than 4 will cause her to lose humanity. The purpose of Leysritt and Sella is to ensure the Einzbern presence is maintained in the Heaven's Feel and the ritual is carried out if Ilya makes it into the final phase of the war.