A Message to Mike1984 from the Mod Team

[deviatesfish]

Why are we still talking about things that happened before and going 'You-did-this-wrong' and 'You-did-that-wrong'? This thread is about Mike and how he is at BL, not 'Mike-and-the-admins'-mistakes-from-ages-back'. Pointing fingers at each other about things that happened 6 months ago is making the discussion go backwards and getting everyone more and more angry.

The root of the problem is that, it if weren't for Mike's manner of speaking, most of us wouldn't be so annoyed with him.

This is like having a young person who never trained in eating manners. Every time food is presented, the he digs into it with no forks or knives or spoons, spilling it everywhere, getting all the tablecloth and his own clothes stained. When others show distain towards his behaviours, he responds that it's just how he is (because no one ever trained him otherwise). When others get annoyed and tries to restrict him to a corner of the dining room, he cries and says they're taking away his fundamental right to eat (technically speaking, true). He also does not clean after himself and even when he does, his messy eating already got too much sauce onto the clothes to make it ever white again. Others get sick of trying to clean after him and ban him from the kitchen, so he grumbles and munches away on snacks on his own, still making a mess. And of course, this goes on and on because he does not see why he should change, and insists that it is others' job to take care of him and accommodating him.

Mike, would you like to be with such a person everyday, especially when he doesn't even pay you?

good metaphor.

[Snax]

Well, I'm a newbie by far and perhaps this isn't really my place to be speaking, but overall I've read through the whole thread (yes, even through the few deviations from topic we had.) and I think I may have seen a few things.

First, I agree with the one person who says digging up past faults isn't going to solve anything. Trying to talk about you-did-this and you-did-that just aggravates the situation. Let me just throw that out first.


Now onto the main topic. Mike, I don't really know you or anything, so I'm sorry to intrude on this, especially since I'm new and pretty much an outsider apart from the RP forum and sometimes the fanfic part. However, over the few posts I have gone through, it seems you mostly portray yourself as a victim in the case of mod/admin abuse of power. Actually, since this is one of the most lenient forums I've seen by far, it is quite difficult for me to see how they are actually abusing power, since I have never seen such an incident yet; perhaps its just because i never broke rules, or because I never step out of the small parts of the forum I stay in. However, in the few posts where you and some others start...clashing, the way I see it, your tone itself is quite....unappealing, if I may be blunt. It kind of makes people like me want to shy away from them. There are two reasons to it, if I may say - first, your tone is pretty aggressive. Second, I rarely see you back down. Conversation is, in my opinion, supposed to flow, not stagnate. Most of the conversations you take part in, however, seem slightly like the latter. At least, that's how I saw it from an outsider's point of view. Even this one.

Now, you may say it's the trolls and the others that don't like you that induce it. Actually, I do see trollbait spread out, but I must say you do attract that kind of attention on yourself sometimes. Honestly, if you changed how you post, some of them would stop trolling or such - but I'm not one to judge, I don't know the full situation.

Now, that problem itself does not earn a permaban. Also, being a new face, I can't judge on that without knowing the whole story, as I keep pointing out.

But that all aside, I see mentions of you having called mods fascists or Nazis before?

Abuse of power or not, the actual act of doing such a thing would have earned you a permaban immediately in other forums. The fact that you're still here means they have been giving you preferential treatment. As written before, this was admitted by the mods and admins, and personally I think it's true as well.

Now, I can understand that it is hard to change as an individual. You are who you are, after all. Others have said you have improved, and the number of posts saying so has convinced me so. However, if you're still having these problems and the majority seems to be having a problem with you, why are you even staying here? If it was me, I would just have left and found somewhere where people would like me better, where I can actually have fun and enjoy some mindless drabble with friends. But then again, that's just me. Perhaps you actually like arguing? I don't know.

All in all, I'm pretty much neutral here on the general topic; however, Mike, you could do with cutting down on your aggressiveness and some other aspects. And if the issue is because the mods have waited too long for you to do so, with a myriad of warnings and some bans down your belt, I can't really argue for your cause. I'm not agreeing that a ban is the solution here, but certainly if the mods and admins think it's the only solution after all the time that passed, I can't disagree either. Sorry, this is just a brief review of what I have seen up till now. Not trying to diss you or hang you out to dry.

[Mike1984]

The point is, you still called it an "abuse of power." You could've said something like "I feel he stepped out of line" or "I don't think this was a good decision." Instead, you used "abuse of power" which paints an image of him as someone who willfully shook up the things just because he could - in a psychological sense, it's "coloring language." Whether he did or didn't is debatable, but I think few would ever consider it actual abuse of power - some would probably see it as minor inconvenience and there's some who would think it's an improvement. Most of the forum probably couldn't care less.

Yes, I will admit that that statement was unfair, but I do not think it deserved this response. You should have talked to me and discussed it in a fair manner, not threatened me.

To you, they may just be what you feel, but "abuse of power" is a very serious allegation. Even in the end you're admitting it was strong. The whole point of us having this topic is basically to try to get you to the point where you realize your choices of words have effects the second the post is put up, and so to think about your words BEFORE you click the "Reply" button, or at the least while you're typing up said reply, as opposed to after-the fact going "Well yes, it was strong, but it's how I felt." By then it's too late - it's already irreversibly colored the perception of some. It may make some indeed view him as abusing his power, but it's also just as likely to make someone else go "Oh look, Mike's bitching again" and that's not good for you either.

The problem is that I actually have not got any idea what the hell you will consider bannable, and I cannot afford to make any kind of mistake.

If I even remotely trusted your judgement, then this would be something that could perhaps work, but right now just about the only solution is for me to avoid posting almost anything, because I do not.

Because we act as a team, not as individuals. You can come to any of us because no matter who you go to "first" we're all going to talk it over anyway.

Sure, but I can just as easily go to Elf or Altima, so why wouldn't I?

Absolutely. Which is why anyone who trolls you is getting a trip out of here if we agree that they are (right, Hamblast?) and if you show what we have stated we want you to show - an effort to word your criticisms of us more constructively and less aggressively - then we'll deal with the consequences of "We're seeing the changes we asked of him, so he's going to stay for the foreseeable future."

The problem is that it is no good me "making an effort", because if I fuck up even once, I'm gone. I don't need to "make an effort", I need to be perfect.

And at that time, we made an agreement: We'd talk to you, but you also have to come to us. By your own admission, you went to Elf, and you went to Altima. You know full well that of all the admins I'm around the most, but you still won't talk to me unless you must, precisely because you don't like me and don't trust me.

You said I had to come to you, I came to you. What's the problem?

This is, again, ridiculous when you factor in what I said above. It doesn't matter who you talk to first - we're all going to bring it up and discuss it as a team. We're going to make the decision as a team. So realistically? I'm probably your best bet if you want quick results, because I'm most likely to be first to reply.

Look, like I said, I would just much rather discuss it with Elf or Altima. I know from past experience that talking to you about it is more likely to end in a ten-page-long argument....

However, if you're only going to "favor" some admins over others simply because you trust some more than others, you're going to have to go by their schedules. Elf is on a few hours a night. Altima floats around fairly irregularly.

Yes, I understand that.

And there's still the simple fact you didn't feel there was quick enough action from any of them, so you put up a blogpost.

Actually, my issue was specifically IRUn's lack of response, not Elf's or Altima's. If IRUn had responded to me, I would not have made that blog post.

I could see you doing that if we'd all said nothing and it'd been a few days, or if we said we'd look into it and then never said anything further regarding the matter, but the simple fact is that you didn't make use of all your available resources in contacting the admins, and you only gave those admins you did talk to a scant handful of hours.

Like I said, the reason I posted the blog post was specifically because of IRUn's lack of a reply, not the admins.

It usually takes us at least a day or two (minimum - this particular issue took the better part of a week) to fully debate out and take a position on any given issue (unless it's stupidly obvious - again, see Hamblast) but if you're not going to treat the admins as a team, or give us the time we will need to adequately discuss and decide, then really there's not much we can do about communication.

I have no issue with giving you the time to discuss things, I just wish you would keep me more informed.

Take this, for example. Altima mentioned that we needed to "talk" a few days ago, then just said "forget it" and didn't even try to involve me in any of this until it got this far. I would much rather have you actually talking to me about problems like this, and let me actually put my side across.

I'm perfectly willing to talk to you at any time, but if you won't talk to me, then that's your choice. It does mean, however, that I'm likewise not going to make much of an effort to talk to you - you're not showing me you're willing to put aside personal differences and feelings to get things resolved, even if I will. Therefore I'll just wait for Elf/Altima to talk to you, and then they're basically your mouth by proxy. It'd be better if I had it straight from yours, but well... c'est la vie, some people are stubborn.

I am quite willing to talk to you, but if I have a choice, then I would rather communicate with them, and there is little point in me sending the same message to all four of you.

You're changing the issue around. You had a problem with a mod. The mods are accountable to admins. You only went to two admins - the ones who you felt you trust - and purposely avoided me.

I didn't "purposely avoid you". My immediate thought when I need to talk to admins is "hey, let's message Altima" or "hey, let's message Elf", not "hey, let's message DP". So, I just did that.

I didn't even know IRUN did it until it had begun to blow up, and then I got the explanation both from the staff threads and later from Elf herself.

Which says a lot about IRUn's action in itself....

You keeping me out of the loop, if anything, is pretty much harming your chances for quicker resolution. Admittedly it's no good if I'm sleeping or playing a game (unless you message me over Steam, anyway) but other than that, if you have a problem, and don't feel you're getting appropriate redress, you should be turning to every single regular admin, for the reasons above.

I wasn't "keeping you out of the loop", I just contacted Altima and Elf because they're my natural go-to points when I need to talk to you lot.

The same goes for you. Instead of treating me as a person, you treat me as an admin - particularly, the admin you like the least.

I only treat you as an admin when you force me to do such. The rest of the time, I treat you as a person who I don't like.

Like I said, this goes both ways, and I told you last time if you wanted things to really improve, we both need to make a better effort to communicate. Ergo, I told you the next time there was an issue, I was an IM away. I told you where to find them. You instead chose to go to other admins, so you're communicating with them - not with me. If you want to communicate with me, you need to talk to me, and you need to not always so deliberately mistrust me simply because I have some measure of authority over how the forum runs.

Yes we both need to make a better effort to communicate. That means you too.

I had no specific issue with you, so I saw no need to talk specifically with you. You, on the other hand, did have an issue with me, so you should have initiated communication rather than expecting me to do so.

The other difference is I've made it very clear I'm an instant away if you have a problem. I am man enough that even if I dislike you on a personal level, you are still a user; you still deserve fair treatment as long as you are in good standing (and yes, you still are, even if this seems like a massive chilling effect on you for now). You, however, have chosen not to initiate any sort of attempt to come to me for help at all.

Again, why should I always have to initiate it? I do not know what your thoughts are on a particular topic and, as you pointed out, I can just as easily make a complaint or bring an issue to your attention through Elf or Altima.

If I have a problem with you specifically, then it is entirely reasonable to expect me to contact you about it, but if I have an issue with IRUn, then the person I need to talk to first and foremost is IRUn. I messaged Elf and Altima mainly to get them to deal with the problem, and honestly that was just a matter of me trusting them not to just say "piss off".

Unless you're talking with me over something, really the only times I'd ever talk to you would be in an official capacity, since we don't personally get along and that's that - and since you prefer to talk to the other admins, I really have little reason to talk to you beforehand since the only time it would matter is when corrective action is being handed out. This is how everyone is treated - it's very rare for us to warn someone they're about to be banned, as we already consider private and public warnings that. The exception is when we're getting close to really sealing them off for good - CV had this as well (albeit more privately).

And this sums up the entire problem I have with your "communication". You don't even try to get my side of the story before banning me, or discuss the situation with me, and you have to let it escalate to this stage before you even try to discuss things with me.

And, then, you wonder why I'm upset with you and claim that your communication sucks....

I claim that because it does suck. You expect me to initiate everything and, despite your promises, make no effort to communicate with me when it actually matters. What good is a promise to communicate with me if you actually meant "yeah, I'll talk to you if you come to me first"? I already knew that.

And, worse, not only do you not attempt to communicate with me about issues like this when you intend to take action on them, you don't even bother to talk to me about issues like this when you're not intending to take action on them. So, as a result, your promise to communicate was totally and utterly worthless from the beginning. All it boils down to was a promise that, if I talked to you, you would respond, which is your job.

What irritates me the most out of all of this is the way I've been lied to and conned throughout the process. You make meaningless promises that I think are a lot more than they truly were, and Altima has just outright lied to me on a consistent basis since the last time I was banned.

No, the consequence was "If we talk to Mike privately, he will get angry about what we say, and then he will use that to color the issue in terms of making it look worse than it is."

We have no issues with him publicizing the things. It's how he words it that is the issue. It's very aggressive language that ultimately paints pictures of us like we're soulless bastards who don't give a damn about him and what he stands for, even if we do, and then when we reply to that, to some it can look like we're merely justifying our behavior, or trying to backpedal.

That's why this came out from us first this time around, so that we can lay out our issues subjectively, and so that it's not coloring perceptions. As Roadbuster put it, we simply skipped the step of trying to resolve it privately, since we felt it would not work, given repeated past experience.

But that is not necessarily true.

Attempting to resolve it privately would have shown that you actually wanted to resolve it, rather than wanting to look good, and it would also have meant that I felt there was more of a possibility for discussion, rather than you making a demand. Basically, making this private would have significantly improved my response to it, because it would not just look like you threatening me.

But that all aside, I see mentions of you having called mods fascists or Nazis before?

Abuse of power or not, the actual act of doing such a thing would have earned you a permaban immediately in other forums. The fact that you're still here means they have been giving you preferential treatment. As written before, this was admitted by the mods and admins, and personally I think it's true as well.

No, that doesn't mean they're giving me "preferential treatment", that just means they're not total dicks.

[deviatesfish]

Not total dicks to you, but that's kind of the opposite of how the people you've slighted would feel. For the people who do follow the rules and do not get aggressive like you do, it seems very much like preferential treatment.

Personally, I'm too biased on this topic. I mean, there's reasons why I rarely venture into the fanfics or the role play forums anymore.

[Neir]

I want to mention something on the matter of preferential treatment.

Not once have I had the mods discuss a ban with me before being banned. Ever.

Just think about that. Regardless of whether you or anyone else thinks it was deserved, consider that I have not received the same treatment you have.

And you know what? I'd actually like a response to this from the admins. It can be private.

[Dark Pulse]

The problem is that I actually have not got any idea what the hell you will consider bannable, and I cannot afford to make any kind of mistake.

If I even remotely trusted your judgement, then this would be something that could perhaps work, but right now just about the only solution is for me to avoid posting almost anything, because I do not.

As was also said, "If you can't say it nice, don't say it at all."

So if you can't word it better, than it's certainly wise to not comment on it until you feel you can.

Sure, but I can just as easily go to Elf or Altima, so why wouldn't I?

Simple: They might not always be.

The problem is that it is no good me "making an effort", because if I fuck up even once, I'm gone. I don't need to "make an effort", I need to be perfect.

Obviously this isn't going to last forever. In practice, how long this lasts is "until your next flare-up" because, as you said, nobody's perfect. At that time, is pretty much when we're going to evaluate if you tried to put some effort in into not making what we have mentioned (the attacks, scaring people off from writing Sakura, etc.) and that's when we'll make our decision, whatever it may be.

You said I had to come to you, I came to you. What's the problem?

Simple: You didn't come to me this time. If you have a serious problem with a mod, you should be going to any admin and letting them know, just in case.

Look, like I said, I would just much rather discuss it with Elf or Altima. I know from past experience that talking to you about it is more likely to end in a ten-page-long argument....

Which is precisely why I didn't reply to all of your points, and I'm keeping these fairly short and terse (at least for me).

Actually, my issue was specifically IRUn's lack of response, not Elf's or Altima's. If IRUn had responded to me, I would not have made that blog post.

Fair enough, but things still apply the same. I feel he should've at least acknowledged he got it - that's a mistake he can learn from. At the same time, it doesn't put you in the clear either, because of how you responded to a perceived snub. As they say, hindsight is 20/20, but hindsight is only good if you learn from its lessons, and we feel that unless we take drastic measures like this, we have little chance of getting our points about how you say things is being harmful to the community, into your mind.

Like I said, the reason I posted the blog post was specifically because of IRUn's lack of a reply, not the admins.

Understood. It still could have been worded better, and now that you know we rarely just "snap decide" things immediately, perhaps you'll be a little more tolerant of things that may be important but not necessarily urgent, as was the case here.

I have no issue with giving you the time to discuss things, I just wish you would keep me more informed.

Take this, for example. Altima mentioned that we needed to "talk" a few days ago, then just said "forget it" and didn't even try to involve me in any of this until it got this far. I would much rather have you actually talking to me about problems like this, and let me actually put my side across.

That is something between you and Altima. I have no control, after all, over what he says or how he does things as an individual, which is why I said if you want more communication from me, you will have to come talk to me, and not him.

I am quite willing to talk to you, but if I have a choice, then I would rather communicate with them, and there is little point in me sending the same message to all four of you.

That's fine, but then if you say you're quite willing, why didn't you?

If you say "I'm willing to" but then find a reason not to, then let's be honest: You're not willing to unless you have literally no other choice. By your own admission you'd much rather talk to Elf or Altima, which puts me into essentially a "if all else fails" category, and by proxy, effectively makes it so nine times out of ten, you'll never come to me at all.

I didn't "purposely avoid you". My immediate thought when I need to talk to admins is "hey, let's message Altima" or "hey, let's message Elf", not "hey, let's message DP". So, I just did that.

Very well then. Just keep in mind there's more than two admins when you have problems, which is my point.

Which says a lot about IRUn's action in itself....

Mostly because I was sleeping at the time it happened. Don't get ideas. By the time I woke up, though, it was beginning.

I only treat you as an admin when you force me to do such. The rest of the time, I treat you as a person who I don't like.

Well see, the problem is, I don't treat you as a person I don't like. Even if it's how I feel, I'm still going to give you fairness and talk to you respectfully, because that's what adults are supposed to do, not call each other names or fuck with someone because they can't stand them. Unless, of course, you'd like me to actually be "honest" and thus treat you like how I personally feel? I somehow doubt that, and I wouldn't personally allow myself to. Do you have any idea how annoying it can be to be seriously, honestly committed to being fair even when you don't want to be?

But that's what people who are actually fair do: Be nice even if they don't want to be, because if they're going to be egotistical assholes who let their personal feelings get in the way of effectively running a board... well, then we'd probably deserve to be called the things you've called us.

Yes we both need to make a better effort to communicate. That means you too.

I had no specific issue with you, so I saw no need to talk specifically with you. You, on the other hand, did have an issue with me, so you should have initiated communication rather than expecting me to do so.

Truth be told, the mod team were the one who put up the request for this (ergo, why it's "A message from the mod team" and not "A message from the admins.") I didn't think your blog was anything too aggressive, but as the discussion went around, it began to be pointed out how this was a non-stop pattern, and I did agree with that. Simply put, we do need to put our foot down on it sooner or later, and it's starting to get to the point where if things don't change, our bad reputation will be more and more deserved.

Again, why should I always have to initiate it? I do not know what your thoughts are on a particular topic and, as you pointed out, I can just as easily make a complaint or bring an issue to your attention through Elf or Altima.

If I have a problem with you specifically, then it is entirely reasonable to expect me to contact you about it, but if I have an issue with IRUn, then the person I need to talk to first and foremost is IRUn. I messaged Elf and Altima mainly to get them to deal with the problem, and honestly that was just a matter of me trusting them not to just say "piss off".

Correct - but if you feel you're not getting satisfaction on the issue, then you talk to an admin. Any admin. That's all I want to make clear to you, and it sounds like you get the picture.

And this sums up the entire problem I have with your "communication". You don't even try to get my side of the story before banning me, or discuss the situation with me, and you have to let it escalate to this stage before you even try to discuss things with me.

And, then, you wonder why I'm upset with you and claim that your communication sucks....

I claim that because it does suck. You expect me to initiate everything and, despite your promises, make no effort to communicate with me when it actually matters. What good is a promise to communicate with me if you actually meant "yeah, I'll talk to you if you come to me first"? I already knew that.

And, worse, not only do you not attempt to communicate with me about issues like this when you intend to take action on them, you don't even bother to talk to me about issues like this when you're not intending to take action on them. So, as a result, your promise to communicate was totally and utterly worthless from the beginning. All it boils down to was a promise that, if I talked to you, you would respond, which is your job.

What irritates me the most out of all of this is the way I've been lied to and conned throughout the process. You make meaningless promises that I think are a lot more than they truly were, and Altima has just outright lied to me on a consistent basis since the last time I was banned.

Not that this has anything to do with a ban. As you said, you mostly needed to talk to IRUN. This is here because it's the latest in a long line of a pattern that is unchanging, and the mods are, essentially, fed up, because it feels like to them every time they do something you don't like, you're calling them things, or if something involves Sakura, you're sure to wreck it.

Again, if you have an issue with the board, or with a poster, and especially a mod, then yes, I expect you to come to one of us. It's what you're supposed to do, and say "Look, I have a problem with this guy/topic/small piece of bread." In a way, this thread in and of itself is essentially a communication to you (we obviously didn't tempban you, after all, which is what we likely would have done in the past) but it's pointing out what we want and what we're expecting, and we're doing the communication - albeit, publicly and not privately like we usually would, for reasons we already mentioned.

You said so yourself that you're a lot less likely to restrain yourself in private, so if talking in public is all that is going to work, then it's better we talk in public then be called things in our PM boxes. Ugliness just because less people will see it is no excuse, and it's still ugly.

But that is not necessarily true.

Attempting to resolve it privately would have shown that you actually wanted to resolve it, rather than wanting to look good, and it would also have meant that I felt there was more of a possibility for discussion, rather than you making a demand. Basically, making this private would have significantly improved my response to it, because it would not just look like you threatening me.

And realistically, given how many years it's been, a repeated pattern to the core issues, and the fact that it's causing significant harm in some ways, the staff thinks we have a few rights to put down demands for your continued use of the place.

You have improved in a lot of ways, but you need improvement in others. We're not asking you to be a saint - we just want to see improvement in those areas. Literally, that's all we want - for you to show you're capable of biting your tongue sometimes and not immediately using the first words that come to you head. If you prove you can do that, consistently, congrats - you're in the clear, and we'll have a lot less problems from then on.

If you can't criticize us civilly, and if you can't avoid making your opinions on Sakura seem forceful, then it's best not to say them at all, as personally annoying as it may be to you. Being wise is not only knowing when to speak, or how to speak it, but when not to speak it.

---

I want to mention something on the matter of preferential treatment.

Not once have I had the mods discuss a ban with me before being banned. Ever.

Just think about that. Regardless of whether you or anyone else thinks it was deserved, consider that I have not received the same treatment you have.

And you know what? I'd actually like a response to this from the admins. It can be private.

Usually bans are not given any sort of discussion to the end-user - as I said before, we consider public and private warnings our warnings of "you're about to be banned." Mike would like an extra step before that, where there is notifying people of an impending ban.

[Mike1984]

I want to mention something on the matter of preferential treatment.

Not once have I had the mods discuss a ban with me before being banned. Ever.

Just think about that. Regardless of whether you or anyone else thinks it was deserved, consider that I have not received the same treatment you have.

And you know what? I'd actually like a response to this from the admins. It can be private.

Well, firstly, I would say that you absolutely should have received that treatment. Everyone has a right to know what is going on.

But, to be quite frank, that is beside the point. I am absolutely sick of all this crap about "preferential treatment". What the mods have been doing is not "preferential treatment", it is simply trying to resolve the situation in the best way they can. They could have treated me in the way you're suggesting, but if they had I would have been banned long ago, or at very least I would have seriously cut back on my posting and treated them much more coldly and distantly, as I am now doing. That is not an outcome that benefits anyone, except those of you who hate me.

Talking to me about things as a friend is by far the best way to resolve issues like this, because I have a serious issue with authority as a concept, but I am also not someone who wants to cause problems. Discussing bans with me before they occur reduces the fall-out from it, and thus causes both them and me considerably less hassle. The only alternative would have been to just clamp down on any dissent from me, which would have resulted in me becoming passive-aggressive and hostile towards them.

The problem here is not that they do that for me, it's that you lot seem to have convinced them that sticking to the letter of the law is more important than actually dealing with the situation. For all they say that private conversations do not work, that is quite simply not true. Altima asked me not to call them fascist, so I stopped calling them fascist. Altima asked me to stop flaming them, so I've stopped flaming them. The whole thing about IRUn I apologised for and said I would attempt to not do it again.

They say that what they want is some indication that I am trying to meet what they ask for, but I am trying. The problem is that, until now, what they wanted was not at all clear. For years, they tolerated me flaming and attacking them, and then suddenly they started clamping down on it. I have tried to deal with this and to talk to them reasonably, but they have made no effort to actually get their side across.

Honestly, if it were not for the attached warning, this post, and the subsequent discussion, would be extremely welcome. But, as it is, it's simply too late. It's one thing for them to say "we are OK with dissent, as long as you don't insult us", but it's quite another to say "if you make any mistake, you're banned". I simply cannot risk making any kind of comment that could possibly be interpreted as hostile, and I do not trust my understanding of their thought processes enough to trust I can say "yeah, they'll be OK with this". Honestly, I'm half-expecting to be banned for something in this thread, but I am prepared to take that risk, not least because of how utterly awful they will look for banning me as a result of a discussion they started.

Further, what I am really upset with, on a personal level is the disconnect between their words and their actions. Elf says "I am Mike's friend", but she is not acting like it. A friend would at least try to resolve the situation, Elf has, as of yet, not made any such effort. Altima, similarly, has made no effort to talk to me about this since the first day, and then he never really made any attempt to resolve it. I can understand that they felt that they have an obligation, as admins, to deal with me as a disruptive influence, but as friends they have an obligation to at least try to resolve it amicably. I don't give a fuck if you call that "preferential treatment", if it achieves the desired result then no-one is going to mind.

But, they did not do that. Instead, they took the approach that, of any approach they could have taken (outside of an immediate ban) is the most likely to result in me being banned eventually. And, even if it does not, it is going to seriously restrict my ability to post or get involved in any kind of discussion, because I simply cannot risk even the possibility of getting angry, not to mention that the situation is hardly going to help in that regard. It seems to me like they put "looking good" and "following the rules" above actually fixing the situation, and that is why I am so upset at Altima, in particular. For all he claims he's trying to help me, he has never discussed the fundamental issues they're raised here (well, aside from the Sakura stuff, but I cannot honestly remember the last time I did anything particularly bad in that respect), and he made no effort to do so prior to this message.

Hell, he even said to me over MSN that this was for the purpose of "making us see eye-to-eye". Which is an admirable goal which was totally undone by the threat that accomponied it, and the consequent chilling effect of me being unable to risk making any kind of mistake.

[Kyte]

Usually bans are not given any sort of discussion to the end-user - as I said before, we consider public and private warnings our warnings of "you're about to be banned." Mike would like an extra step before that, where there is notifying people of an impending ban.

Well that ain't what's happening with Mikey-boy, now is it? I recall a lot of discussion about bans whenever he got one.

[Neir]

The fact that you feel betrayed means absolutely nothing. You know that. This is not a matter of how you feel, it's a matter of how you act. Period.

And whether should or should not have gotten to discuss band before they happened, the fact is that I did not, and you do. This is preferential treatment, no matter how you spin it.

- - - Updated - - -

The fact that you feel betrayed means absolutely nothing. You know that. This is not a matter of how you feel, it's a matter of how you act. Period.

And whether should or should not have gotten to discuss band before they happened, the fact is that I did not, and you do. This is preferential treatment, no matter how you spin it.

[Mike1984]

As was also said, "If you can't say it nice, don't say it at all."

So if you can't word it better, than it's certainly wise to not comment on it until you feel you can.

The problem is that I have no idea what you consider to be "better". I simply do not trust your judgement in this regard. Or, rather, I do not trust it to be sufficiently close to mine.

Simple: They might not always be.

Perhaps, but in this case they were.

Obviously this isn't going to last forever. In practice, how long this lasts is "until your next flare-up" because, as you said, nobody's perfect. At that time, is pretty much when we're going to evaluate if you tried to put some effort in into not making what we have mentioned (the attacks, scaring people off from writing Sakura, etc.) and that's when we'll make our decision, whatever it may be.

Well, exactly, which means I have absolutely no way to feel safe about posting, and that lasts indefinitely. I cannot trust your judgement and I cannot feel safe. So, essentially, you have banned me from doing almost anything, because I know that any kind of blow-up could get me banned, and I know you will not even bother to listen to my viewpoint on the matter. And, even if I don't get banned due to my next blow-up, I doubt that will be the end of the matter.

Simple: You didn't come to me this time. If you have a serious problem with a mod, you should be going to any admin and letting them know, just in case.

I messaged Altima and Elf, that was sufficient.

Fair enough, but things still apply the same. I feel he should've at least acknowledged he got it - that's a mistake he can learn from. At the same time, it doesn't put you in the clear either, because of how you responded to a perceived snub.

Yes, I understand that, but I do not feel that it justified this. I made a mistake, I apologised for it and I intended to learn from it.

As they say, hindsight is 20/20, but hindsight is only good if you learn from its lessons, and we feel that unless we take drastic measures like this, we have little chance of getting our points about how you say things is being harmful to the community, into your mind.

But that is quite simply not true. You made no effort to communicate this with me in any other way, and the result of this is simply to make me feel unsafe far beyond the level which was intended.

]Understood. It still could have been worded better, and now that you know we rarely just "snap decide" things immediately, perhaps you'll be a little more tolerant of things that may be important but not necessarily urgent, as was the case here.

Yes, but Altima talking to me had already convinced me of that. You just did not even give me the chance to demonstrate it.

The problem is that I now cannot risk doing effectively anything. Even if an explosion isn't guarenteed to get me banned, I do not trust you to make the right decision in that respect, so I cannot risk doing anything that even might lead to an explosion.

That is something between you and Altima. I have no control, after all, over what he says or how he does things as an individual, which is why I said if you want more communication from me, you will have to come talk to me, and not him.

Yes, it is, but this is not a topic solely about my relationship with you, even if you're the only one who is currently actually talking.

That's fine, but then if you say you're quite willing, why didn't you?

If you say "I'm willing to" but then find a reason not to, then let's be honest: You're not willing to unless you have literally no other choice. By your own admission you'd much rather talk to Elf or Altima, which puts me into essentially a "if all else fails" category, and by proxy, effectively makes it so nine times out of ten, you'll never come to me at all.

Well, yes, because I would rather talk to them, if given the choice. That does not mean I cannot talk to you.

Very well then. Just keep in mind there's more than two admins when you have problems, which is my point.

Yes, OK, I understand that.

Mostly because I was sleeping at the time it happened. Don't get ideas. By the time I woke up, though, it was beginning.

Well, he still should have discussed it with you first, really....

Well see, the problem is, I don't treat you as a person I don't like. Even if it's how I feel, I'm still going to give you fairness and talk to you respectfully, because that's what adults are supposed to do, not call each other names or fuck with someone because they can't stand them. Unless, of course, you'd like me to actually be "honest" and thus treat you like how I personally feel? I somehow doubt that, and I wouldn't personally allow myself to. Do you have any idea how annoying it can be to be seriously, honestly committed to being fair even when you don't want to be?

I do treat you fairly, though. Certainly recently. I have not been screaming at you because I don't like you, I've been arguing with you civilly. Even the last argument I had with you only exploded as a result of IRUn's comment. Before that I was being entirely reasonable, by your own admission.

When I say that I treat you as a "person I don't like", that doesn't imply me not being fair.

But that's what people who are actually fair do: Be nice even if they don't want to be, because if they're going to be egotistical assholes who let their personal feelings get in the way of effectively running a board... well, then we'd probably deserve to be called the things you've called us.

Well, yes, fair enough.

Truth be told, the mod team were the one who put up the request for this (ergo, why it's "A message from the mod team" and not "A message from the admins.")

Yeah, that does not really shock me, I've never been fond of the mod team as a group.

When they were first appointed, I complained about them being mostly anti-Mike, and that seems to have been borne out here.

I didn't think your blog was anything too aggressive, but as the discussion went around, it began to be pointed out how this was a non-stop pattern, and I did agree with that.

See, this is the point. You yourself admit that it was not overly aggressive. I will not say there was nothing wrong with it, but if they had a problem with me they should have tried actually talking to me, not threatening me.

Simply put, we do need to put our foot down on it sooner or later, and it's starting to get to the point where if things don't change, our bad reputation will be more and more deserved.

The problem is that you have jumped from "do nothing" to "final warning" in essentially one single leap. You made no effort whatsoever to communicate with me

Correct - but if you feel you're not getting satisfaction on the issue, then you talk to an admin. Any admin. That's all I want to make clear to you, and it sounds like you get the picture.

I do, but it's too damn late now....

Not that this has anything to do with a ban. As you said, you mostly needed to talk to IRUN. This is here because it's the latest in a long line of a pattern that is unchanging, and the mods are, essentially, fed up, because it feels like to them every time they do something you don't like, you're calling them things, or if something involves Sakura, you're sure to wreck it.

No, but it's the same issue once again. Terrible communication that just makes issues worse.

Again, if you have an issue with the board, or with a poster, and especially a mod, then yes, I expect you to come to one of us. It's what you're supposed to do, and say "Look, I have a problem with this guy/topic/small piece of bread."

Look, I understand that, but I do not think it is just for you to expect criticism of the mods to be covered-up. If they make a mistake, it is only right to call them out on it.

In a way, this thread in and of itself is essentially a communication to you (we obviously didn't tempban you, after all, which is what we likely would have done in the past) but it's pointing out what we want and what we're expecting, and we're doing the communication - albeit, publicly and not privately like we usually would, for reasons we already mentioned.

The problem is that it comes with a very severe threat attached. You avoided one method of upsetting me and, therefore, rendering the communication ineffective only to end up falling straight into another one.

You said so yourself that you're a lot less likely to restrain yourself in private, so if talking in public is all that is going to work, then it's better we talk in public then be called things in our PM boxes. Ugliness just because less people will see it is no excuse, and it's still ugly.

But, me restraining myself does not actually assist in making the situation any better. At least if I can express my true opinion, we can try to resolve that.

And realistically, given how many years it's been, a repeated pattern to the core issues, and the fact that it's causing significant harm in some ways, the staff thinks we have a few rights to put down demands for your continued use of the place.

Perhaps, but you have handled this terribly if all you wanted to do was to resolve the issue. Instead of saying "look, this is what we want", you've said "do this or you're out", and I simply cannot risk making a mistake.

You have improved in a lot of ways, but you need improvement in others. We're not asking you to be a saint - we just want to see improvement in those areas. Literally, that's all we want - for you to show you're capable of biting your tongue sometimes and not immediately using the first words that come to you head. If you prove you can do that, consistently, congrats - you're in the clear, and we'll have a lot less problems from then on.

But, I have shown that. The problem is that, when I "bite my tongue", you don't even notice, because nothing happens.

And, the thing is, I do not trust you on this. The threat you have made is simply too severe for me to risk getting it wrong.

If you can't criticize us civilly, and if you can't avoid making your opinions on Sakura seem forceful, then it's best not to say them at all, as personally annoying as it may be to you. Being wise is not only knowing when to speak, or how to speak it, but when not to speak it.

The thing is, I don't even know what you consider "forceful", so I basically cannot give my opinions at all.

Usually bans are not given any sort of discussion to the end-user - as I said before, we consider public and private warnings our warnings of "you're about to be banned." Mike would like an extra step before that, where there is notifying people of an impending ban.

No, I would like you to discuss the bans with the user in question and let them give their side of the story. That is not the same thing.

- - - Updated - - -

The fact that you feel betrayed means absolutely nothing. You know that. This is not a matter of how you feel, it's a matter of how you act. Period.

Sorry, that is just crap. They claim to be my friends, and then do not act like it. They put "following the rules" above both our friendship and also actually resolving the problem in question.

Neither Elf nor Altima have made any effort to talk to me about this (aside from when it first appeared), even though both of them have been on MSN the last several nights. Maybe that is the act of a mod, but it is not the act of a friend.

And whether should or should not have gotten to discuss band before they happened, the fact is that I did not, and you do. This is preferential treatment, no matter how you spin it.

Then they should be discussing it with you too. The fact that they do not does not make them any more right to not discuss it with me.

[Neir]

Putting rules above friendship is called INTEGRITY, not backstabbing. You can't cry foul because people don't share your value system.

And again, SHOULD is not the issue. What HAPPENED is the issue.

Mike, you're a lot of things, but I know for a fact you're not stupid. Don't pretend to be so you can convince yourself of things.

[Kyte]

Sorry, that is just crap. They claim to be my friends, and then do not act like it. They put "following the rules" above both our friendship and also actually resolving the problem in question.

Yes, that's how preferential treatment works. Glad to know we're on the same page.
Ideally, the admin/mod should have no friends. Of course that's not something that can actually happen so instead they must separate their personal and professional concerns.
Except they don't. Because they are giving you preferential treatment.

[Mike1984]

Putting rules above friendship is called INTEGRITY, not backstabbing. You can't cry foul because people don't share your value system.

And again, SHOULD is not the issue. What HAPPENED is the issue.

Mike, you're a lot of things, but I know for a fact you're not stupid. Don't pretend to be so you can convince yourself of things.

No, doing what is right is integrity, following the rules is stupidity.

[Neir]

That's the value system thing I just mentioned.

[Seika]

Maybe that is the act of a mod, but it is not the act of a friend.

Friendship is not the be-all and end-all of personal interaction. Even putting that aside, a friend ought to be telling you your faults as much as enjoying your good points. And your friends shouldn't be enabling you when you're wrong. If they found you stealing or whatever else, there's more of an onus on them to make sure it's dealt with. A friend doesn't want you to be a bad person, they want you to be the person they've come to enjoy spending time with. Hell, they want you to be even better than that.

[Mike1984]

Friendship is not the be-all and end-all of personal interaction. Even putting that aside, a friend ought to be telling you your faults as much as enjoying your good points. And your friends shouldn't be enabling you when you're wrong. If they found you stealing or whatever else, there's more of an onus on them to make sure it's dealt with. A friend doesn't want you to be a bad person, they want you to be the person they've come to enjoy spending time with. Hell, they want you to be even better than that.

Sure, I accept that. However, the way they've gone about this is not a good way of "telling me my faults". Further, whilst it is correct that friends shouldn't just let you get away with doing bad things, they shouldn't condemn you for making mistakes.

[Seika]

Whether mistaken or not, it's a fault they should be telling you about and asking you to fix. That this also impinges on their duties as mods and admins makes it more necessary. And they've judged that this is the best way to tell you.

[Laith]

When you repeat the same mistakes over and over again, without really correcting them and are hurting the friendship, since you are actually offending them, then yeah, they should.

[Mike1984]

Whether mistaken or not, it's a fault they should be telling you about and asking you to fix.

Sure.

That this also impinges on their duties as mods and admins makes it more necessary.

Perhaps.

And they've judged that this is the best way to tell you.

And they have made an absolutely terrible judgement.

When you repeat the same mistakes over and over again, without really correcting them and are hurting the friendship, since you are actually offending them, then yeah, they should.

That is not the case, though. I make mistakes, I correct them, I make other mistakes. They have never even tried to talk to me in a more general way, it's always about specific problems, and usually when I'm in a bad mood due to being warned or banned.

[Kyte]

That is not the case, though. I make mistakes, I correct them, I make other mistakes. They have never even tried to talk to me in a more general way, it's always about specific problems, and usually when I'm in a bad mood due to being warned or banned.

What are you talking about your mistakes are always the same. They even share parentage. "Insults everything and everyone whenever you get pissed" and "It's always the other guy's fault" are the core to most of them, and amazingly enough, you are making them right in this very thread.