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Thread: A Message to Mike1984 from the Mod Team

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    全力後輩 - Zenryoku Kohai Altima of the Gates's Avatar
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    A Message to Mike1984 from the Mod Team

    We, the Administrative and Moderator Teams as a whole have come to a decision. After long debate we have decided that this is the Final “Ultimatum” for Mike1984. We have counted multiple times were we have issued multiple warnings, even tried peaceful discussion, and have had little or no results.

    Beast’s Lair has lost many members due to Mike’s actions and open hostility. Multiple members have left the board altogether while others who were original posters rarely venture onto BL anymore due to Mike’s open aggression on subject matters concerning, or those he forcefully concerns, Sakura. It has gotten to the point where BL has gathered infamy, and not of a positive note, due to Mike’s belligerent conduct.

    He has made his vehement distaste for the Admin and Mods publically known to the point of insulting us in blog posts or in open discussion. We understand that there are other members baiting Mike, but he goes far beyond a reasonable response for being baited. Most of our users are rather peaceful, but we do try to deal with the “Bad Eggs” as they come along. Case in point, Crying_Vegeta.

    However, if Mike’s complaints aren’t immediately dealt with he flies off the handle and calls us unfair, and when we have to deal with him he calls us “fascists” and “Jackboot and Nazi Uniform Wearing”. We have explained time and time again we deal with things as a committee. We bring things up to vote and most of us have outside lives of the forum. I am often called to work mandatory overtime at my job for example and it’s not uncommon for me to work several 10 hour days during the work week and occasionally a Saturday as well.

    Despite all of this, Mike continues to act in a hostile nature in the following cases in point:

    He makes new fanfiction writers uncomfortable. Fanfiction is fanfiction, it is a work made by a fan for other fans on subject matter they enjoy. Which may not include Sakura. Handing out constructive criticism if she’s not characterized properly is one thing, but flaming is not appropriate. If one cannot find anything constructive to say, then simply leave. Demanding a character be injected in a fic if he or she doesn’t belong doesn’t do any good. Especially if the Author doesn’t know how to “handle” said character nor had any plans for them in their story.

    We have seen multiple cases where Mike has gotten antagonistic about the treatment or lack of treatment that writers have given Sakura in their fanfiction. It has gotten to the point where new Authors who would have positive and entertaining content uncomfortable to post here. Which is something we do not want. Our fanfiction community is perhaps the busiest part of the site. We want people to feel welcome here.

    Sadly, berating authors to include a certain character and flaming their works does not invite positive activity.

    If something is writing something that you don’t like, don’t read it. Simple as that. Don’t bully someone simply because you don’t like what they write. That’s a waste of your time and the author’s.

    Being hostile to the Admins and Mods. This was already mentioned above, but I’ll go into more detail here. We have lives and aren’t on line 24-7, our names are neither Clark Kent or Bruce Wayne. Everyone gets a response, but there maybe a few hour wait time. Flying off the handle if a response is not given within minutes is severely unreasonable.

    Then when we have to make a decision against Mike’s behavior after he’s become aggressive and antagonistic, we are automatically called facists, Nazis, and unfair. Even though those of us who are his friends, such as Altima and myself, have given him chances and friendly warnings to cool down, but they’re not heeded. Then when we do have to, regrettably, step down we are automatically insulted and harassed about having to do our jobs to keep peace on the forum.

    Honestly, any other forum would have banned him a long time ago. However we have given him multiple chances to change, and he has promised that he would change. Yet we have not seen that promise take effect yet even after we’ve given him admittedly special consideration that we may not have given other members. We’ve bent over backwards trying to help him, but it’s been a thankless task and made already stressful lives even more stressful.

    An example of this can be seen here, and despite acts like that we have given him multiple chances.

    Having overly heated arguments with other members. I will admit that there are members of this forum who openly “troll” Mike. We handle these trolls as they come and have handed out warnings and temporary bans because of this. A friendly bit of rivalry is fine and expected, but to get outright hostile is not.

    However Mike has instigated as many arguments as he has had started against him. His hair trigger temper gets the better of him. I understand getting pissed off, but there’s an old Native American saying, “Giving someone your anger gives them their power over you.” There should be a point where one walks away, or figure out how to get your point across without being an antagonistic wanker.

    Broken promises of change. When we started the new forum, Mike apologized about his abhorrent behavior in the past to Altima and said he was going to change. He promised to be less hostile and sharp with his tongue. If anything he’s gotten worse over the time the new forum has been up.

    We’ve gone to great lengths, more so than most members, to explain to him why his behavior is troublesome. He complains about the rules and doesn’t abide by them. Our rules are simple and made for the enjoyment of the community so that it’s not a hostile environment here like other forums. He states in another circumstances he’d act differently, but he hasn’t. We’ve given him multiple chances, more so than we would other members.

    In fact we constantly get bombarded with questions of, “Why haven’t we banned them yet?”

    He calls us unfair and fascists, but how is trying to force one’s feelings upon someone else any better?

    Because we’re trying to be fair to him, and that some of us are even friends with him. However there is a point where friendship goes so far. That point is now. His latest blog post is sort of the “final nail in the coffin”. I am writing this with a heavy heart though, because Mike is my friend.

    We are giving Mike one more chance to change, after that we will fully ban him from the forum.

    If Mike is banned or not is up to Mike now. We've given him plenty of warnings and chances to change. If he fails to do so, we will ban him.

    Thank You,

    Elf and the rest of the Moderation and Administration Team. (Note: Elf helped compile this, but it is all of our thoughts)

    This goes out to the rest of the forum and not just Mike:

    If you find yourself in a situation where you cannot respond in a reasonable matter then do not respond at all. Just walk away.



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    OK, wow, that's really harsh to suddenly dump this on me, just because of a blog post which really wasn't that offensive at all. OK, I did screw up, but it's not at all true that I "don't change" and don't take notice of it. But, I'm not perfect, and I will make mistakes. And, it seems like you're unwilling to accept that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh, and thanks for the fucking big "please troll me" target on my back, too, that's really helpful.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And, also, it seems like you just can't take criticism. As soon as I make any kind of attack (and a justified one, at that) on your moderation, I get a threat like this. OK, so what I said to IRUn was a little unfair, and I apologise for that, but I think you are taking this way too far.

  3. #3
    Bisschen mehr ist nicht zu viel verlangt I3uster's Avatar
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    Arguably IRUNs choice to merge the threads was wrong though. Not for me but apparently there are people who read these things from the start :V
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    And, as for attacking you, I do that because your communication skills are quite frankly terrible. Such as the last ban I got, for example, which you gave me without any discussion or any chance to apologise.

    I will admit that I do make mistake and get angry, but it does not happen that often, and I do post a hell of a lot. I don't think that my behaviour comes even close to justifying a permaban, and I am extremely dissapointed in you for threatening me with such and putting all this pressure on me. If I could just not explode at people, I would, it's really not that simple. I make mistakes, everyone makes mistakes, including you. Hell, Elf, you admitted that the last time you banned me it was because you were in a grouchy mood. But, apparently, only admins are allowed to make mistakes, us normal users just get banned.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by I3uster View Post
    Arguably IRUNs choice to merge the threads was wrong though. Not for me but apparently there are people who read these things from the start :V
    It was undoubtedly wrong, although I think what they're objecting to is the statement that it was an "abuse of power", which was admittedly a little strong. Even so, I do not think that my blog post was really all that bad, and I think that threatening me with a ban for it just proves they cannot handle criticism.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, note that the "example" of me misbehaving that Altima decided to show was one from over a year ago. Hardly a recent example....

  5. #5
    the master of infinite roads lantzblades's Avatar
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    this notice is skitso, i had to reread it twice. altima didn't write this, if you did altima then why is there a third person element in the writing? it's confusing. and that blog post being the nail in the coffin seems odd.
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    it is my firm belief that regarding the ban of mike1984 I have been given insufficient reason for the affair and it's conclusion, further than this I feel that the light manner it has been treated in is appalling. It is my sincere hope that he is not regarded in the same way as actually malicious posters who have appeared on beast's lair or otherwise as a joke to be snickered at when spoken of in the future. I will not forget my friend or view him in the manner those in charge here have presented him and his actions, nor will I accept the situation as it stands where people snicker at him as if he were a joke.

  6. #6
    Imperial Princess Satehi's Avatar
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    It... seems rather obviously written by Elf?

    It even has a nice note at the bottom, saying it was written by Elf, although it is representative of the mod team.

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    This may hurt a little Neir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
    but there’s an old Native American saying,
    ELF IS THAT YOU
    Quote Originally Posted by lantzblades View Post
    says the hater, you keep on hating, i'll be around ignoring your invalid, incorrect opinion.
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    Yeah, I assume Altima posted it because Elf is not online, although I dunno why it took them this long to do so. Also, Elf made no effort to actually talk to me before posting this, even though she was on MSN last night and talked to me about other stuff.

  9. #9
    死徒 Dead Apostle RR121's Avatar
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    Hrm....

    I disapprove of this post, for a few reasons. As everyone is aware by now, no doubt, I disapprove of many of Mike's behaviors, and so forth, but I find this post pointless. First of all, its a laundry list of his flaws. Thanks, I guess? I mean, we knew that. Why are we airing them here, publically? Now, I freely admit that the admins have no doubt attempted to bring these up in private, with limited to no results. I get that. However, posting these publically seems to encourage trolling, and is extremely unlikely to affect Mike in any way, or improve his attitude.

    In my opinion, corrective action should be clearly and explicitly defined, with clear negative consequences based on behavior. For one, I do not approve of the strange dichotomy between "allowed to do whatever" and "banned forever". Tempbans, removal of rights to post temporarily while retaining blog rights, and restrictions upon what forums may be posted upon are legitimate ways to provide punitive action before we devolve into a permaban. So far, I believe we've only seen tempbans, and even then, the actual "cooldown period" is vague and undefined. I understand that's to prevent people trying to game the system, but human corrective action can be taken in those cases if we see people behaving only while their cooldown is in effect.

    On the whole, I find this post slightly...vindictive, which I find unappealing. I understand that the admins have a difficult job, and have been attempting to deal with this issue for awhile, but it strikes me that corrective action should be taken cleanly and without public humiliation, as this post seems to imply.
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    And, when is the last time I "got antagonistic" about Sakura not being in a story? I don't go around ranting and raving at people, I just post my opinion. The problem is that it sounds antagonistic to you, and it's not like you bother to listen to my opinion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RR121 View Post
    Hrm....

    I disapprove of this post, for a few reasons. As everyone is aware by now, no doubt, I disapprove of many of Mike's behaviors, and so forth, but I find this post pointless. First of all, its a laundry list of his flaws. Thanks, I guess? I mean, we knew that. Why are we airing them here, publically? Now, I freely admit that the admins have no doubt attempted to bring these up in private, with limited to no results. I get that. However, posting these publically seems to encourage trolling, and is extremely unlikely to affect Mike in any way, or improve his attitude.
    See, the thing is, they actually haven't discussed this with me.

    In my opinion, corrective action should be clearly and explicitly defined, with clear negative consequences based on behavior. For one, I do not approve of the strange dichotomy between "allowed to do whatever" and "banned forever". Tempbans, removal of rights to post temporarily while retaining blog rights, and restrictions upon what forums may be posted upon are legitimate ways to provide punitive action before we devolve into a permaban.
    Well, what gets me here is the sudden "right, this is a last chance" thing. Hell, I've not even been given so much as a temp ban for the blog post, and yet they are taking it as a reason to threaten me with a permaban.

    OK, so I do have issues, I accept that, but I am not anything like as bad as they seem to think. I explode occasionally, yes, but it's not really all that often, and when I do it is often as much an issue with the mods as with me. In particular, their communication is absolutely terrible, particularly the last time I got temp-banned.

    Honestly, that was the main issue behind my blog post. I simply do not trust the mods and admins to communicate with me effectively or to address the (entirely legitimate) issue I raised, hence me making a blog post. I was a little harsh on IRUn, but there's no way in hell that deserves what they've done here.

    Hell, they talk about explosions, but that blog post was not an "explosion". It was written entirely rationally and sensibly, and pointed out genuine issues. Sure, it was quite strongly-worded, but that's just how I speak.

    The issue I have with the mods is a lack of trust, and honestly my trust in them has absolutely plummeted now, given the lack of care about me they seem to be showing here, and the unfair way they've suddenly jumped on me. Not to mention the false statements that I have not got better, when I actually have in some ways.

    So far, I believe we've only seen tempbans, and even then, the actual "cooldown period" is vague and undefined. I understand that's to prevent people trying to game the system, but human corrective action can be taken in those cases if we see people behaving only while their cooldown is in effect.
    Yeah, this is something I do not like at all. It just makes people worried and unsure of their situation.

    On the whole, I find this post slightly...vindictive, which I find unappealing. I understand that the admins have a difficult job, and have been attempting to deal with this issue for awhile, but it strikes me that corrective action should be taken cleanly and without public humiliation, as this post seems to imply.
    Yeah, honestly, it does come across like that, although I'm sure that wasn't their intention.

    Honestly, there are areas in which I've got better and areas in which I've got worse. I explode at the other forumites a lot less now than I used to and, for that matter, I explode at the mods a lot less severely. The difference is that, a year ago, I generally trusted the admins, so I didn't tend to argue with them that much. Now, I don't, so I argue a lot more. But, the actual arguments are not particularly abusive, and certainly are nothing I would get banned for were they not mods. I am just expressing my genuine opinion calmly and rationally.

  11. #11
    Honestly, I do agree that this is too much. Why couldn't they have just PMed him this, instead of making it a public affair? For that matter, what Sakura talking? I'll be honest here, I don't go to the Fanfiction section as I used to, because...because. But the places I do go now, (GD, Anime and Manga, the other GD, 7th, some Roleplaying) the guy hardly talks about her now, and everybody else just doesn't bash her. I feel that bringing that up was unnecessary.

  12. #12
    Attention Span Gone Aiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TypeWannabe View Post
    For that matter, what Sakura talking? I'll be honest here, I don't go to the Fanfiction section as I used to, because...because. But the places I do go now, (GD, Anime and Manga, the other GD, 7th, some Roleplaying) the guy hardly talks about her now, and everybody else just doesn't bash her. I feel that bringing that up was unnecessary.
    It's basically Fanfiction section, that part, I think.

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    At least from what I've observed.
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    Κυρία Ἐλέησον Seika's Avatar
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    He does still bring her up in FF, Type. And in the same way he always did.

    I'm another one who'd say that this should be private, but even if I don't like how it was put out, I at least get the reasoning in the post.
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    アカシャの蛇 The Serpent of Akasha RacingeR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
    Yet we have not seen that promise take effect yet even after we’ve given him admittedly special consideration that we may not have given other members.
    *Blinks*

    You know, I usually kind of consider myself kind of a chill person. I mean, I have my rage moments, but these are rare, and pretty far away from one each other.

    But I still feel like saying, with a pretty angry tone, that now you are freely admitting that?

    I mean, it has been a long time since then, but you know that the insistence on not admitting that whole thing with giving him special treatment is what made me wall off out of most of the forum and enclose myself in the RP section?

    I think it is one of the few moments that I can say that the whole BL drama has come near making me genuinely upset.


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  15. #15
    死徒 Dead Apostle RR121's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1984 View Post
    Honestly, there are areas in which I've got better and areas in which I've got worse. I explode at the other forumites a lot less now than I used to and, for that matter, I explode at the mods a lot less severely. The difference is that, a year ago, I generally trusted the admins, so I didn't tend to argue with them that much. Now, I don't, so I argue a lot more. But, the actual arguments are not particularly abusive, and certainly are nothing I would get banned for were they not mods. I am just expressing my genuine opinion calmly and rationally.
    In all seriousness, and mind you, this is a rare thing for me to say, since I'm usually a full-time unrepentant dick...

    You've actually improved. You don't come off as obnoxious as often as you used to when I first joined, and frankly, I think that with a bit of time, you could become a highly productive member of the community. There's no doubt you have more spare time and dedication to this forum than most, and I can't remember the last time you went batshit insane about a Sakura post....it might've been Lancer gets Serious, but since then, I haven't seen too much rage.

    Anyways, I'm rambling. My point being that with a bit of improvement, I think I would have no objections with Mike staying on the forum.

    *Blinks*

    You know, I usually kind of consider myself kind of a chill person. I mean, I have my rage moments, but these are rare, and pretty far away from one each other.

    But I still feel like saying, with a pretty angry tone, that now you are freely admitting that?

    I mean, it has been a long time since then, but you know that the insistence on not admitting that whole thing with giving him special treatment is what made me wall off out of most of the forum and enclose myself in the RP section?

    I think it is one of the few moments that I can say that the whole BL drama has come near making me genuinely upset.
    And this. After so long of hearing "no special treatment", now you say you gave him special treatment? You don't get it both ways.
    Last edited by RR121; October 22nd, 2012 at 08:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Satehi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seika View Post
    He does still bring her up in FF, Type. And in the same way he always did.

    I'm another one who'd say that this should be private, but even if I don't like how it was put out, I at least get the reasoning in the post.
    Yes, I bring her up in a "I would like to see her in this fic" kind-of way. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RR121 View Post
    In all seriousness, and mind you, this is a rare thing for me to say, since I'm usually a full-time unrepentant dick...

    You've actually improved. You don't come off as obnoxious as often as you used to when I first joined, and frankly, I think that with a bit of time, you could become a highly productive member of the community. There's no doubt you have more spare time and dedication to this forum than most, and I can't remember the last time you went batshit insane about a Sakura post....it might've been Lancer gets Serious, but since then, I haven't seen too much rage.

    Anyways, I'm rambling. My point being that with a bit of improvement, I think I would have no objections with Mike staying on the forum.
    Exactly. OK, I'm not perfect, but I am improving, as much as the mods seem incapable of recognising that.

    I think the issue is that my relationship with the mods and admins has steadily broken down over time, due to a combination of my naturally anti-authoritarian attitude, their rather suddenly and sporadically hardening stance and their quite franky utterly abysmal attempts at communication (DP, who I quite frankly can't stand, becoming an admin and the appointment of the new mods has not helped one bit either). As a result, whilst I've exploded at the rest of the forum a lot less, I've argued with the mods a lot more than I used to (including on the forum), and that is far more noticable to them. Even then, my actual statements to them have become generally a lot harsher, but I'm a lot less respectful of them than I used to because, to be quite honest, I have less respect for them than I used to have.

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    Dat look Raven2785's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1984 View Post
    Yes, I bring her up in a "I would like to see her in this fic" kind-of way. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
    The problem is your wording Mike, while you may want to say "I Would like to see what you got planned for Sakura here" a lot of the times I've seen you do it you come across more like "why isn't Sakura in this fic? why aren't you writing about her more?" which sounds a lot more agressive, and if someone tells you that there's no plan for Sakura to make an appearance you start accusing them of hating the character.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raven2785 View Post
    The problem is your wording Mike, while you may want to say "I Would like to see what you got planned for Sakura here" a lot of the times I've seen you do it you come across more like "why isn't Sakura in this fic? why aren't you writing about her more?" which sounds a lot more agressive, and if someone tells you that there's no plan for Sakura to make an appearance you start accusing them of hating the character.
    Yeah, I understand that. A lot of the issue is that that's just how I tend to speak. Even if I'm actually not acting hostile, it does often come across that way.

  19. #19
    Attention Span Gone Aiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1984 View Post
    Yeah, I understand that. A lot of the issue is that that's just how I tend to speak. Even if I'm actually not acting hostile, it does often come across that way.
    I think that is considered part of the problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiden View Post
    I think that is considered part of the problem.
    Perhaps, but I do not think that justifies a permaban. People have different ways of speaking, we're not all uber diplomats like Altima seems to think he is.

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