The Beast's Lair Fanfic Contest (2013 Edition) (Discussion Thread)

[Seika]

Also, because if we make a "General" category, there is no point in a concept metric and there will be people who just say "Put mine there" because it's an easy way out. That's not fair to the others who are doing a genre piece.

But why is a genre piece more deserving than a less specific work in the first place? Why reward on that count? And 'concept' is still a useful metric because it rewards a writer for the actual idea of the story being intelligent, original and non-generic. I really think you're too hung-up on using the Concept metric for categorisation, when that's not what you'd immediately think of as regards the word 'concept'.

How is it fundamentally unfair? The rules are quite there and quite clear - you pick a category. There's nothing saying that you can't use other elements in a given story, but obviously, if you pick a category, you should be judged according to that category.

But you're forcing categories on works that aren't designed for them, and then scoring them lower because of it. That is unfair.

That's making things easier for them versus someone who is in a defined category, since, as I said, there is no way to decide "Does it stick to its category?" if by definition the category has no real limits in the first place.

Realistically, I think the risks of that kind of category outweigh the benefits of allowing a "free" category, and obviously we have to apply equal sets of rules to all categories. How, for example, would you judge "Artistry" in a genre that really has no definition of "what to be judged by?"

And again you're getting too hung-up on this idea of 'does it stick to its category' actually being a useful or good thing to judge by. I contend that it absolutely isn't: it's nothing to do with writing, it's a extra-narrative decision which is essentially how you're marketing it. You shouldn't be scoring on that.

And 'Artistry' is obviously still useful without a category - it encompasses everything that is already written down as criteria in that first post. All the points there are cross-genre, with one exception for lemons.

[Dark Pulse]

I said not overall X, not that X isn't good or even great. What you're basically telling me right now, is that you're going to penalize a story for being balanced, or in other words, being more like an actual story.

Basically, the inclusion of the categories as a factor in the scoring scheme is going to restrict the actual quality of both the fics and the judging because each individual category is going to have their own quirks that may give higher score to a story that panders the most to it...but not necessarily a story that's actually just better overall.

I mean, I can understand having categories for purposes of searching for fics that may be to your taste, but for the purposes of scoring in a contest? Wut? Why?

(Well, I do have some ideas of why, but I generally don't agree with them. Humor, for example, generally don't do well against other genres in contests of quality.)

Once again, I feel that a free category would simply end up doing the following:

• Allow people to simply not commit to any given category. This gives them more room to do things than someone who is in a category.
• Forces judging to judge basically off characterization/technicals alone, since usually a fic that tries to do everything winds up being good at nothing. There is no build to a punchline, a dramatic ending, a final battle, character emotions, or smut, because the freedom to "not have to do a genre" means that basically there will be little building in any direction. This will make the Artistry score suffer, since I feel that the more a fic tries to do, the less it actually does something to make it memorable.
• Doesn't require the author to keep their category in mind since there's no need for them to do so, while others have to.
• In a way, thumbs the nose at the people who DO pick a category. Realistically, can you think of any reasons why people would pick a category over having one where they don't have to think about the limitations of the category? I can't, unless the author is very set on a particular genre - in which case, none of this argument applies anyway.

Believe me, I'd love it if this sort of category could be added, but simply put, as-is, I think it would also be heavily abused and that would suck. Again, if you can come up with ways to kind of counter the potential issues with the category, I'd absolutely consider adding it... but without some ways to make sure it's not a scot-free, noncommittal category where someone can write just anything and gain a high Concept score, the best alternative is to not have it, even though it does restrict author choice a little.

But why is a genre piece more deserving than a less specific work in the first place? Why reward on that count? And 'concept' is still a useful metric because it rewards a writer for the actual idea of the story being intelligent, original and non-generic. I really think you're too hung-up on using the Concept metric for categorisation, when that's not what you'd immediately think of as regards the word 'concept'.

Which is why I said that Concept is probably badly named (Milbunk named that, not me). I'd probably name it to something like "Consistency," in other words, the story doesn't make any sudden odd leaps or anything.

But how would you rate that on a "Free" category? It's impossible, really. You can't give people in the Free category 10 points here just because they don't screw with the laws and rules of the Nasuverse; that makes no sense and it's not how this metric is scored in the other categories, so it won't work as-is.

But you're forcing categories on works that aren't designed for them, and then scoring them lower because of it. That is unfair.

You do know that some people do set out to write a genre piece, right? Not every fic (in fact, actually relatively few fics) would realistically be harmed by the fact that there's categories. No entries really felt out of place last year (save maybe for Elf's which was less drama and more romance/lemon) so in a way, I think you're overblowing the potential problems this can cause.

And, once again, do you have a solution for this problem that would be fair to both genre fics as well as free fics? Some kind of replacement metric? If you can think of these things, then I can start considering adding it, but there is simply no way to make a restriction-free fic "consistent" in the same sense of the genre-based fics.

And again you're getting too hung-up on this idea of 'does it stick to its category' actually being a useful or good thing to judge by. I contend that it absolutely isn't: it's nothing to do with writing, it's a extra-narrative decision which is essentially how you're marketing it. You shouldn't be scoring on that.

And 'Artistry' is obviously still useful without a category - it encompasses everything that is already written down as criteria in that first post. All the points there are cross-genre, with one exception for lemons.

Sorry if I'm jaded, but I seem to remember last year's Humor entries not exactly being very humorous. I think the highest I scored something was upper 60s, or low 70s. (Ironically, I also remember saying that if Five's "Bare Knuckle Brawler" had been entered into Humor it probably would've had an easy win in that category, as opposed to Action where it still did good but had much stiffer competition.)

If you think Concept/Consistency is such a bad metric, give me a replacement metric. Give me something that will be equally fair to both genre stories as well as free stories. Concept/Consistency, as it currently is, is not fair to free ones; tossing it entirely to let free fics in just waters down weighting the scores in the stuff that matters. We would need something to replace it that's fair for all and actually can be scored on both genre fics and free fics, but it must be something minor and universal since it would need to replace a 10-point metric.

Otherwise, there's no real point because basically there is no way to score free fics on Concept/Consistency (they have no really majorly defineable background, after all, compared to a category fic, besides obvious things like not playing with the laws of physics) equally, and the only solution to that is to either nuke categories entirely (which I'm pretty sure would be a very bad idea) or to not allow free fics.

[ItsaRandomUsername]

Challenge accepted.

[Seika]

Once again, I feel that a free category would simply end up doing the following:

• Allow people to simply not commit to any given category. This gives them more room to do things than someone who is in a category.

A category is a statement of intent and specialisation. It says that the story wants to be judged among other stories of its ilk and that the author believes that it will be competitive there. In some ways, I'd be interested in having the specialist categories be rewarded among themselves for being good examples of the genre (so an explicit nod to the authors for choosing and entering something appropriate to the field), but return to normal judging rubrics when trying to compare cross-category - i.e. against 'General' - for overall winners. That's a lot of work though, and certain not neat, so it's not what I'd go for.

As a possible side-note, I think that a General category (if that were the solution) would and should indeed become more fully populated, and the specialist categories would therefore have the 'reward' of less competition.

There is no build to a punchline, a dramatic ending, a final battle, character emotions, or smut, because the freedom to "not have to do a genre" means that basically there will be little building in any direction.

No, that's just bad writing. It's nothing to do with whether you pick a genre or not. And we've continually been arguing from the point-of-view of a 'fic where the idea has already come up - there already is a direction to build in.

This will make the Artistry score suffer

If the 'fic genuinely does do nothing, then this would be an entirely appropriate punishment, and I don't see why this is a problem.

Doesn't require the author to keep their category in mind since there's no need for them to do so, while others have to.

This would be solved by my preferred solution of explicitly noting to all the judges and entrants that everyone acknowledges the difficulty of slamming explicit categories on imprecise art and saying that absolutely no points will be given or deducted based on how you keep to your genre. Everyone can be as free or as strict as they like without having to worry that it will affect them. In short, the category becomes 'it has something of this in it', instead of 'it is this'. (Again, I don't see why 'sticking to a category' was ever considered a good basis for giving points).

In a way, thumbs the nose at the people who DO pick a category. Realistically, can you think of any reasons why people would pick a category over having one where they don't have to think about the limitations of the category? I can't, unless the author is very set on a particular genre - in which case, none of this argument applies anyway.

See point about generalisation/specialisation above.

I'd absolutely consider adding it... but without some ways to make sure it's not a scot-free, noncommittal category where someone can write just anything and gain a high Concept score, the best alternative is to not have it, even though it does restrict author choice a little.

I really don't think it only restricts author choice 'a little'. And you're still rigidly sticking to the problematic definition of Concept already given. Throw it out and the difficulty goes away.

Which is why I said that Concept is probably badly named (Milbunk named that, not me). I'd probably name it to something like "Consistency," in other words, the story doesn't make any sudden odd leaps or anything.

But how would you rate that on a "Free" category? It's impossible, really. You can't give people in the Free category 10 points here just because they don't screw with the laws and rules of the Nasuverse; that makes no sense and it's not how this metric is scored in the other categories, so it won't work as-is.

A consistent tone might be worth rewarding, but it's also very possible that an inconsistent tone fits the piece: let's take the scene in HF where Shirō kills Saber Alter. He flashes back to happy times, and that increases the power of the tragic part where he has to stab her and throw away the happy memories. In any case, whilst genre might be connecting to that, I'm very certain it doesn't define it. As such, I'd take or reward points (because it's true that badly-done inconsistent tones do hurt a piece) in Artistry for that, rather than thinking it deserving of a separate category. If specific word-choice significantly contributed to the odd or inconstant tone, I might even take off Technical points.

I strongly disagree with the category both as it stands, and as you interpret it. As an alternative, I suggest that it should be replaced with what you'd actually think a Concept category means: the idea and background to the 'fic - is it original? If it is original, is it actually good? ('Rin takes an LSD overdose and mumbles at the ceiling', for example, might be new but it's also pretty dumb).

You do know that some people do set out to write a genre piece, right? Not every fic (in fact, actually relatively few fics) would realistically be harmed by the fact that there's categories. No entries really felt out of place last year (save maybe for Elf's which was less drama and more romance/lemon) so in a way, I think you're overblowing the potential problems this can cause.

But 'made a genre piece' just is. I'm not proposing you mark it down, just that you don't care. And RacingeR and I are both already feeling affected, not to mention people last year who might have wanted to work more freely but chose a specific idea to avoid the potential points loss.

And, once again, do you have a solution for this problem that would be fair to both genre fics as well as free fics? Some kind of replacement metric? If you can think of these things, then I can start considering adding it, but there is simply no way to make a restriction-free fic "consistent" in the same sense of the genre-based fics.

My solution is as stated above: get rid of this weird idea about your marketing choices being worthy of scoring, and make the category what it says on the tin. Someone else might argue for a General category, and I'm not sure that's wrong, but I would be fully satisfied just knowing that I'm free to write an idea without it being marked down for not being a neat genre shape, as it were.

[Dark Pulse]

A category is a statement of intent and specialisation. It says that the story wants to be judged among other stories of its ilk and that the author believes that it will be competitive there. In some ways, I'd be interested in having the specialist categories be rewarded among themselves for being good examples of the genre (so an explicit nod to the authors for choosing and entering something appropriate to the field), but return to normal judging rubrics when trying to compare cross-category - i.e. against 'General' - for overall winners. That's a lot of work though, and certain not neat, so it's not what I'd go for.

As a possible side-note, I think that a General category (if that were the solution) would and should indeed become more fully populated, and the specialist categories would therefore have the 'reward' of less competition.

And that's exactly proving some of my points: Nobody would want to, if given the choice, constrain themselves to a category. They'll go with the easiest pick - the general category - because then we're not judging them on how good they drama/action/comedy/romance/lemon, we're basically judging them on a story that's about quite literally nothing at all, AKA Slice of Life. I'm not against this in principle, but in practice, I feel this makes for a rather boring story, since either the story is literally about nothing (otherwise, it would have likely fit into one of the categories) or it builds towards nothing due to trying to do everything.

I'm not all "hung up" on Concept/Consistency - at least, I'm not trying to be. Like I said, I thought about a similar category myself. But the more I thought about it, the less sure I was that it would work. I feel that this gets ruled out as a metric if we add a Free category. Since the metrics are supposed to apply to all stories, this makes it completely incompatible with Free, and somewhat (though less breakingly) incompatible with Lemons, though well, Lemon "consistency" should be very hard to screw up as long as you have a basic idea of how sex actually works.

No, that's just bad writing. It's nothing to do with whether you pick a genre or not. And we've continually been arguing from the point-of-view of a 'fic where the idea has already come up - there already is a direction to build in.

So, again, how do you make a "Free" fic that would have consistency?

Right now, it's one of the metrics in the rubric. Obviously consistency cannot be measured in a general story since there is nothing to build to except the author's whims - you expect a comedy story to be funny, a drama story to have tension, an action story to have fights, a romance story to have emotions, and a lemon story to have pOnOs in vagOOO, whereas a general story isn't going to have such a clear "direction" because the author can take it literally anywhere. By that logic, every story that is general must either get a perfect 10 (which is insulting to the other categories) or a perfect zero (which is insulting to the people in the general category). Therefore, the only way a Free category can be added is if some minor, but universal, metric could be applied to both genre pieces as well as free pieces - and even in that case, I'd argue that it's not really necessary because your argument seems to be less about "I want a generic choice" and more about "I don't want to be held so tightly to a certain category."

I'm perfectly understanding of that. The problem is, we then need a replacement metric for Concept - and honestly, I can't think of any right now.

If the 'fic genuinely does do nothing, then this would be an entirely appropriate punishment, and I don't see why this is a problem.

We seem to be both missing each other's points. Again, how does a general, class-free fic have consistency compared to others in its genre?

If we can answer this, we've solved half the problem.

This would be solved by my preferred solution of explicitly noting to all the judges and entrants that everyone acknowledges the difficulty of slamming explicit categories on imprecise art and saying that absolutely no points will be given or deducted based on how you keep to your genre. Everyone can be as free or as strict as they like without having to worry that it will affect them. In short, the category becomes 'it has something of this in it', instead of 'it is this'. (Again, I don't see why 'sticking to a category' was ever considered a good basis for giving points).

I'm perfectly fine with this as long as you can come up with some other metric to replace Consistency. The only other option would be to drop it and go to a 30/30/20/20 scoring system which would be pointless and dilute the weighting heavily on Technical/Artistry and literally cancel out the weighting on Characterization, which I really don't like.

I'm fine with making things not so "restricted" in the point that we expect you to stick to the genre, but then we need some kind of universal metric to replace consistency, because nominally, every contest before this one (from when they were lemon on) in a way had this scored. It was much easier in the lemon days, since the only real requirement was that your story have some smut. Obviously, we're trying to accommodate both the people who want smut as well as those who don't, but that does mean that to some extent we need some levels of categorization and "eveneness" in the rubric. A "free" choice is incompatible with it due to the consistency issue, so this means we need something to replace it.

See point about generalisation/specialisation above.

Ditto.

I really don't think it only restricts author choice 'a little'. And you're still rigidly sticking to the problematic definition of Concept already given. Throw it out and the difficulty goes away.

Throw it out and we lose weighting. We need a replacement if you think this is so bad.

Also, still fails to address why people would go for a category as opposed to the easier Free category.

A consistent tone might be worth rewarding, but it's also very possible that an inconsistent tone fits the piece: let's take the scene in HF where Shirō kills Saber Alter. He flashes back to happy times, and that increases the power of the tragic part where he has to stab her and throw away the happy memories. In any case, whilst genre might be connecting to that, I'm very certain it doesn't define it. As such, I'd take or reward points (because it's true that badly-done inconsistent tones do hurt a piece) in Artistry for that, rather than thinking it deserving of a separate category. If specific word-choice significantly contributed to the odd or inconstant tone, I might even take off Technical points.

This example fits Drama quite nicely, and all the author would have to do is depict the internal struggle of Shirou's thoughts, one side telling him to stab because he must, and the other to not stab because he thinks she'll get better. Author would gain concept points here for keeping the tension high, and artistry points would be an easy score for either choice as long as they keep the story written in a way to pull the reader in.

I strongly disagree with the category both as it stands, and as you interpret it. As an alternative, I suggest that it should be replaced with what you'd actually think a Concept category means: the idea and background to the 'fic - is it original? If it is original, is it actually good? ('Rin takes an LSD overdose and mumbles at the ceiling', for example, might be new but it's also pretty dumb).

The problem is that's basically covered by "Uniqueness." It's part of why it's easy to confuse Concept and Uniqueness - Concept has nothing to do with actual concept, and Uniqueness is what you'd EXPECT to be Concept.

But 'made a genre piece' just is. I'm not proposing you mark it down, just that you don't care. And RacingeR and I are both already feeling affected, not to mention people last year who might have wanted to work more freely but chose a specific idea to avoid the potential points loss.

Again, I'm perfectly happy with throwing away Concept as long as something universal can replace it. Adding a Free option would be way too risky without something else universal that would give a minor 10-point score, as I really don't want to destroy the weighting, either.

I'm trying to think of something, but I'm only human, dammit. Since it's clear you care enough to argue the issue, maybe it means one of us will figure out something to replace it.

My solution is as stated above: get rid of this weird idea about your marketing choices being worthy of scoring, and make the category what it says on the tin. Someone else might argue for a General category, and I'm not sure that's wrong, but I would be fully satisfied just knowing that I'm free to write an idea without it being marked down for not being a neat genre shape, as it were.

"Marketing Choices" is what Milbunk decided what he wanted. It's what we did last year and nobody had many issues (except perhaps for there being too few categories), which I agreed with and tried to rectify. Now, despite adding two categories, you're arguing that's still not enough; that the metric of "Concept" needs to be tossed and that we need a Free category, or else you feel restricted. I can understand your concerns, but you also have to understand mine - that the goal behind the contest is to have interesting fanfics and not generic ones, that everything be scored as consistently as humanly possible, and that no one category has more or less difficulty than the others.

To that end, I'd much rather simply replace "Concept" with a different metric. This way, we both get satisfaction - you don't feel the need to stick "strictly" to a genre, and I don't have a boring, generic category made because people could not keep the focus in one of five general directions.

Can we agree on that, at least?

[Neir]

So much text to read on a phone.

[RadiantBeam]

And this is why I'm not entering this contest.

[ItsaRandomUsername]

I see Seika and Dark Pulse arguing and debating up a storm about the contest's rules/intentions.

I also see that Seika has not entered into the contest in spite of this.

...um...LOL? :V

[Lycodrake]

ITT: Return of the Quotation Wars.
Those poor Bothans. ;~;

[Tangerang]

put me down as a maybe

[Seika]

I see Seika and Dark Pulse arguing and debating up a storm about the contest's rules/intentions.

I also see that Seika has not entered into the contest in spite of this.

...um...LOL? :V

By which you mean, "Seika mentioned entering, and she mentioned when an idea had come to her, but it got missed both times".

I'd probably have stuck my oar in anyway, because I still firmly think that giving/taking points on the basis of fitting a category is dumb, but I do have a horse in this race too.

That said, if we were to try to come up with improvements to the rubric, then my suggestion would be that Originality stays as what it seems to be currently focused on - the originality of execution - whereas we appropriate Concept for originality (and plain excellence) of the idea. The novelty of how it was written, and the novelty of what came before the writing. Cutting five points from either (though both would likely not be appropriate) for an extra five onto Artistry might or might not be worthwhile. Either that, or roll the Originality and Concept parts together into one measure which covers both originality of concept and execution, possibly making the same five-point adjustment.

[ItsaRandomUsername]

I didn't because I don't care about what anyone is doing except for myself during the preliminary writing stage.

I was just skimming posts and must have missed a point along the way.

[Dark Pulse]

Cutting five points from either (though both would likely not be appropriate) for an extra five onto Artistry might or might not be worthwhile. Either that, or roll the Originality and Concept parts together into one measure which covers both originality of concept and execution, possibly making the same five-point adjustment.

Two five point measures would be silly, but so would having a 10 and a 5; then we're talking a whopping thirty-point displacement between Artistry and one of these.

Rolling them into one is a good idea, but I do feel like something universal needs to replace it.

[legoguydude]

You know what, put me down for humor.

Also, fuck you for starting this two weeks before midterms.

[Dark Pulse]

You know what, put me down for humor.

Also, fuck you for starting this two weeks before midterms.

They're not due until April. No need to rush.

[Vigilantia]

They're not due until April. No need to rush.

Lies. If you don't start now you'll fuck up in a hurry trying to churn out material to finish your story, which was supposed to be X length but turned into 2.5X length. You'll feel the seconds tick by as your 1 week turns into 2 days into 2 hours. And then you'll have incomplete sections in your story and you'll cry as Elf flames you harder than 4 Sisters of Battle with promethium flamers.

[Arashi_Leonhart]

Hey now, as a college student and writer I am required by law to say that all my good work comes from procrastinating to the very end and then getting everything done at the last minute. When I have time to plan stuff out, everything goes to shit due to that thing called the thought process.

[Vigilantia]

Me and my friends also finished a semester project in 7 days. However, I can tell you right now that it does NOT feel good and it is NOT fun. If you can work and finish something bit by bit, it's much less stressful. Some people can do it, some can't. I'm just saying if you have the time, chip away at it rather than leaving it to the last 7 days and getting stressed out.

Also, Arashi, you're already a writer. You don't even need to enter into the contest because you're good enough to write a fic yourself (and write fast enough in a timely manner). You can do what most people wish they could do after several years of writing.

[Arashi_Leonhart]

And you know how I got to where I am? Procrastinate, procrastinate, procrastinate, procrastinate, IDON'THAVETIMEFORTHISSHIIIIIIIIIT turn in.

I mean, yes, you're right, chip away at it if you can, but to be honest, I've found there is a lot to be said for stressing out and pushing yourself to the wire. It often makes you go places you wouldn't otherwise or come to a conclusion faster and more intensely than you would with time to spare. Tbh, that's why I haven't even decided whether I'll participate in this contest or not, because the deadline is so far off. The last one had a much earlier deadline, so I pumped out ideas a lot faster.

[RanmaBushiko]

If you have about equal amounts of Romance and Action, with a good chunk of plot increase, which should the story be categorized under? Yeah, I'm asking for obvious reasons. Also, no, I won't write nearly as long an epic as Archer's Story this time, but THANK YOU for taking out the word limits. Makes writing this a lot easier to get everything in that I want, rather than skipping whole chunks of needed story.