Lyrical Days

[Muramasa]

Because the Contender can only be used at close range. :V

Is it really strictly limited to short range? I'm going to need citation here.

If they survive, they would know that he has something which causes magic to backfire on them. And if they survive it, they'll know to guard against it.That right there, is a trump revealed.

The thing about an origin bullet is that there is no orthodox method to guard against it. Infact trying to guard against it generally makes things 'worse'.

As to the difference in magic styles. The fact remains, he does not know beyond a shadow of a doubt. He has a very good reason to believe it will be different than Nanoha's, this being because the only mages he knows that does not use Magecraft is Nanoha, Yuuno, and their enemy. Three is not exactly the greatest pool to draw knowledge from. And because he can't be sure, he would not pull out the Contender, get to the range in which he can hope to hit something with it, and let it rip.

The only way the contender fails is if the magic came from an external source. Even if Kiritsugu had to consider such a possiblity, the odds of his targets relying on an external source to use magic is miniscule. He has worse odds of his gun locking up. Anyway this is a pretty bad generalization. Your line of thinking could apply just as easily to a Nasuverse mage as it would a Mid-childa, leaving Kiritsugu a reluctance to use the contender at all in fear the magus/mage was aware of the mystic code and prepared some kind of feint or counter measure. At least the magus worry is legitimate. Here he has a clear target and no reason to believe the contender would fail.

The chance of failure is higher, but so are his chances of getting away clean.

His enemy learns there is someone with guns out to get them, and that this new enemy is willing to use lethal force. And they have no idea who this person is, how they look like, or any of their other capabilities. Forcing them to act much more cautiously seeing as to they do not know when this new enemy might strike and from where.

A barrier would narrow down the search quite a bit and they now know to search for him. Bardiche may even be able to track him. Kiritsugu loses much of his ability to launch a surprise attack and he's in no condition to fight Fate or Arf head on.

And yes, Kiritsugu would slow down Fate/Arf's Jewel Seed hunting a lot or atleast until Precia starts cracking the whip.

Kiritsugu in turn learns that he needs something with more oomph. And he gets away clean. Not to mention that he was most likely not found, seeing as to he'll be using a suppressor and be in a concealed location, he'll get away without having revealed who he is seeing as to "I got shot in the back while fighting" is counter intuitive to calmly analyzing the exact location that the shooter had when they shot you in the back. Which in turn means that he'll still have the element of surprise next time he tries to shoot at Fate.

See above.

No matter how you look at it, its much more advantageous for him to not go balls in with the Contender, which is what this whole thing is about.

If he takes one of them out in the first try, fine. If not, his job likely gets a lot harder.

[fraggle]

small update. chapter IV is nearing completion, although Both me and Hero still need to take another look at it before we unleash the betareaders.


have a Fate oneliner while you wait:

“You, what do you think you are doing?” Nanoha cried out as power gathered in front of Bardiche’s tip, aimed directly towards Shirou.

“... Saving him.”

Oh Fate, you so kuudere like that

[YeOfLittleFaith]

Hohohoh, yes.
The Fate x Shirou ship shall be in full swing again soon enough... very soon. Kufufufufufufu.

[Santo]

Is it really strictly limited to short range? I'm going to need citation here.

Talking pure ballistics, the Thompson Contender can give you 1-inch grouping at 100+yards. When firing from a stable stance, with a scope in a clear non-windy day, at a non-moving paper target.

The only times Kiritsugu has used it was at close (hell, near point blank) ranges. This ensures a hit.


Studies of the fighting in WWII determined that most of the infantry fighting took place at distances under 200 yards, and those figures have not changed much in modern conflicts. ("Operational Requirements for an Infantry Hand Weapon" by Norman Hitchman (aka Hitchman Report))

Firefights happen at ranges much closer than 100 yards. If Kiri wants to hit something with it, taking into consideration he is shooting a target that is likely to be moving, if he is using the Contender, they are likely to be aware and that he does not have a scope on the thing. He's gonna be calling 50 yards a long shot. :V

The thing about an origin bullet is that there is no orthodox method to guard against it. Infact trying to guard against it generally makes things 'worse'.

Are you kidding me? Of course there is an orthodox method to guard against it. It's called Dodge, something Fate does quite well. Kiritsugu only ever fired at a target that he knew would block it.

Take sad-wheels for an example. Kiritsugu taunted him, enraged him, made him dumb. And then he shot the guy in the Mystic Code because Keyneth Archbald El-Melloy aka sadwheels would prove that his Mystic Code is better.

If Kiritsugu draws and fires at Fate, what she'll be doing is dodging.

The only way the contender fails is if the magic came from an external source.

Incorrect, the Contender will fail any number of ways. Among them are cover (Extensive when you can fly and put a building or three in between the static shooter and you), moving away from the enemy's effective range, and of course, dodging.

Even if Kiritsugu had to consider such a possiblity, the odds of his targets relying on an external source to use magic is miniscule. He has worse odds of his gun locking up. Anyway this is a pretty bad generalization. Your line of thinking could apply just as easily to a Nasuverse mage as it would a Mid-childa, leaving Kiritsugu a reluctance to use the contender at all in fear the magus/mage was aware of the mystic code and prepared some kind of feint or counter measure. At least the magus worry is legitimate. Here he has a clear target and no reason to believe the contender would fail.

Even in canon he had a very good reason to believe the Contender would fail.

Take for example: Dodging.

He only ever used it as a sucker punch once he convinced the other that he could not be touched. Its an ace in the hole, you don't start out with it.

The only reason he used it as an opening move against Kotomine, was because he had the sumbitch dead to rights, at close range (The other side of the room that Kirei cleared in [going by the anime rendition as the Novel did not give an exact time] a few seconds to get to grips with him, probably 50~ yards) with no cover and when he showed clear intent of blocking with Black Keys. Had Kirei not been using Command Seals, he would have been Angry-Wheels.

A barrier would narrow down the search quite a bit and they now know to search for him. Bardiche may even be able to track him. Kiritsugu loses much of his ability to launch a surprise attack and he's in no condition to fight Fate or Arf head on.

A barrier would narrow down the search quite a bit.

And all that the person searching knows is that a hot bit of lead hit them in the back while they were (And still are) busy fighting someone else.

Because as I said, concealed position, suppressor, lot of noise, and of-course, in the middle of a fight. Not the best conditions in which to start a search. Hell, Nanoha will likely not even know that something's up and just continue fighting like nothing is up.

Arf would likely be able to tell the overall direction from which the shot came from thanks to the fact that she has doggy ears. Then again, with the attention she is putting into the fight and the noise generated by said fight, she would most likely fail to hear it. As your average bystander needs to be within 100~ yards to pinpoint the sound of the bullet saying "Screw you" to the speed of sound, and being your average bystander, probably fail to hear it.

Chances are quite good in such a scenario, that he can get away clean. Or move to another location and hide while the kids finish the fight.

And yes, Kiritsugu would slow down Fate/Arf's Jewel Seed hunting a lot or atleast until Precia starts cracking the whip.

On this it would appear we agree.

See above.

See above.

If he takes one of them out in the first try, fine. If not, his job likely gets a lot harder.

According to Kiritsugu's Modus Operandi. If he's using the Origin Bullet, he has already done quite a lot of other stuff. And is firing because he is sure that the shot will connect. AKA, he is at close range, with the enemy devoid of cover, and relatively sure they are going to block rather than dodge.

So...no...I still don't see him using it as an opening act when failing the first shot will get him incapacitated before he can reload. Because he is, after all, a half-blind cripple. He's only getting one shot with the Contender and he knows this, so I honestly cannot see him waltzing out and trying it just like that.


tl;dr:

There are plenty of ways the Origin Bullet will fail. Dodging being among them.

In other news. Fast and Furious 6 was action packed. And Epic is an awesome movie.

[Lycodrake]

tl;dr:
There are plenty of ways the Origin Bullet will fail. Dodging being among them.

*slow clap*

In other news. Fast and Furious 6 was action packed. And Epic is an awesome movie.

Fast and Furious is still good? I thought it all fell flatter than Akiha's chest after 1/3rd through the second movie?

[Santo]

Fast and Furious is still good? I thought it all fell flatter than Akiha's chest after 1/3rd through the second movie?

Yeah I stopped watching after the second movie.

But 6 is definitely worth watching. :3

[lhklan]

Second movie was bad. Haven't watch third, but 4th and 5th was worth a shot.
From the trailer , 6th is looking to be quite good. Especially with that rumor about a Jason Statham cameo post credit.

[Muramasa]

Are you kidding me? Of course there is an orthodox method to guard against it. It's called Dodge, something Fate does quite well. Kiritsugu only ever fired at a target that he knew would block it.

Take sad-wheels for an example. Kiritsugu taunted him, enraged him, made him dumb. And then he shot the guy in the Mystic Code because Keyneth Archbald El-Melloy aka sadwheels would prove that his Mystic Code is better.

If Kiritsugu draws and fires at Fate, what she'll be doing is dodging.

Fate would attempt to dodge if she was even remotely aware of what that gun is capable of, I'd agree. However that's not information she'd have any hope of having... until it's too late. And you're right, Kiritsugu would fire the contender when Fate can't dodge. Weather she was preoccupied with Nanoha, Shirou or otherwise.

Incorrect, the Contender will fail any number of ways. Among them are cover (Extensive when you can fly and put a building or three in between the static shooter and you), moving away from the enemy's effective range, and of course, dodging.

Okay, technically that's also true, but I think we're getting a bit out of context here.

A barrier would narrow down the search quite a bit.

And all that the person searching knows is that a hot bit of lead hit them in the back while they were (And still are) busy fighting someone else.

Because as I said, concealed position, suppressor, lot of noise, and of-course, in the middle of a fight. Not the best conditions in which to start a search. Hell, Nanoha will likely not even know that something's up and just continue fighting like nothing is up.

This is where a bit of strategizing between Fate and Arf would go a long way.

If Kiritsugu's first shot fails and Fate/Arf become aware of an enemy sniper, then they need to bolt, regroup and reprioritize the sniper even over the Jewel Seeds.

You are correct that Nanoha/Yuuno/Shirou would under normal circumstances make that impossible. However that's only true when there is Jewel Seed up for grabs, after which point hostilities involving those three would likely cease. No Jewel Seed, no fighting. Either Fate/Arf would have to go after Kiritsugu when there's the least chance for interference, or they could use one of their own jewel seeds as bait to lure team Nanoha while they go after Kiritsugu directly.

They would be foolish to continue as they normally do. That would quickly mean a dead or critically wounded Fate/Arf or both.

Of course, the above is all meaningless if the first shot succeeds. *shrugs*

According to Kiritsugu's Modus Operandi. If he's using the Origin Bullet, he has already done quite a lot of other stuff. And is firing because he is sure that the shot will connect. AKA, he is at close range, with the enemy devoid of cover, and relatively sure they are going to attack or block or is otherwise preoccupied rather than dodge.

Fixed more or less.

tl;dr:

There are plenty of ways the Origin Bullet will fail. Dodging being among them.

Yes, there's dodging. Everything else you mentioned (out of range/ not a clear shot) falls more on the lines of improper use of the mystic code. / technicalities

[nununu]

More importantly, could Kiritsugu even perform the activities necessary for whichever strategy he opts for without keeling over? He might just cough his innards out after getting into position before he could even pull the trigger. Guy's not exactly the picture of good health and combat isn't the most relaxing of activities.

[Santo]

This is where a bit of strategizing between Fate and Arf would go a long way.

If Kiritsugu's first shot fails and Fate/Arf become aware of an enemy sniper, then they need to bolt, regroup and reprioritize the sniper even over the Jewel Seeds.

Seeing as to we've agreed on everything else.

What I'm saying is that there is a great difference between "I know there is a sniper." and "I know who and where the sniper is."

What you are suggesting necessitates them knowing Kiritsugu is the sniper, and for him to try something ineffective twice in a row. Besides, once that fails he's likely not to go back to it. Damn meddling moeblobs and their barrier jackets.

More importantly, could Kiritsugu even perform the activities necessary for whichever strategy he opts for without keeling over? He might just cough his innards out after getting into position before he could even pull the trigger. Guy's not exactly the picture of good health and combat isn't the most relaxing of activities.

I think the old dog still hasone or two half-assed fights left in him.

He would not be the best sniper out there, but considering he didn't drop dead while walking for hours in uneven snowy ground, he could likely handle a few elevator rides to get into and out of position.

Bit of an edit.

Fate would attempt to dodge if she was even remotely aware of what that gun is capable of, I'd agree. However that's not information she'd have any hope of having... until it's too late.

Actually, I'm of the mind Fate would attempt to dodge even if she is not remotely aware of what the gun is capable of. Even with armor, getting shot would not be pleasant after all. :V

[Knick]

Actually, I'm of the mind Fate would attempt to dodge even if she is not remotely aware of what the gun is capable of. Even with armor, getting shot would not be pleasant after all. :V

Isn't magic considered superior to mass weaponry in almost every way in the nanohaverse, especially relatively primitive bullets. In that general society if you have magic you have no reason to fear stuff like that, its just not something that is ever on their radar.

Its more likly she would not detect energy readings from the projectile (except for whatever little prana is in them, which is nothing compared for a magical bullet) and so not registered as a threat. And because of that she would have no reason to dodge something like it and continue on her current objective, capturing a Jewel Seed or fighting rather then letting it distract her.

Edit: Its like dodging a Nerf dart while your in a real fire fight, just not worth the effort.

[Muramasa]

What I'm saying is that there is a great difference between "I know there is a sniper." and "I know who and where the sniper is."

Thus why they'd need to use bait to give themselves time to locate the sniper. Between the use of a barrier and bardiche, that would narrow down the location fairly quickly.

What you are suggesting necessitates them knowing Kiritsugu is the sniper,

Simple deduction once the barrier is erect to eliminate all other possibilities.

and for him to try something ineffective twice in a row.

Just once, actually. They'll be gunning for Kiritsugu weather he tries the same thing again or not.

Besides, once that fails he's likely not to go back to it. Damn meddling moeblobs and their barrier jackets.

If the shot fails, I imagine it would be more to Kiritsugu's shot straying off target as a side effect of his failing condition. If it's not a direct hit, the barrier jacket will deflect it away to varying success depending on collision angle. A direct hit should work.

[Muramasa]

Actually, I'm of the mind Fate would attempt to dodge even if she is not remotely aware of what the gun is capable of. Even with armor, getting shot would not be pleasant after all. :V

I've been going over the first season and it doesn't seem like she's a dedicated, evasive speedster like she was in A's. She's still fast in comparison to Nanoha and seems to favor using a powerful lightning blast to serve as a diversion for the real attack which is a physical strike with Bardiche in scythe form while Nanoha is likewise distracted. Seems to have problems with tunnel vision. Chrono shot her out of the sky easily when she made a desperate grab for a Jewel Seed. In their final bout Nanoha's divine shooter tagged her without much difficulty.

There's a good chance she hasn't quite developed the speed and/or reflexes to dodge bullets yet unless she was already in motion when the gun fires.

[Heroslayer]

I've been going over the first season and it doesn't seem like she's a dedicated, evasive speedster like she was in A's. She's still fast in comparison to Nanoha and seems to favor using a powerful lightning blast to serve as a diversion for the real attack which is a physical strike with Bardiche in scythe form while Nanoha is likewise distracted. Seems to have problems with tunnel vision. Chrono shot her out of the sky easily when she made a desperate grab for a Jewel Seed. In their final bout Nanoha's divine shooter tagged her without much difficulty.

There's a good chance she hasn't quite developed the speed and/or reflexes to dodge bullets yet unless she was already in motion when the gun fires.

This is true. In first season, she's not exactly a speedster, more of a bruiser since her go to move seems to be Scythe Form, get in close and overwhelm Nanoha at close range. It's not really until she gets Bardiche upgraded and she fights Signum that she gets really fast and that's really more of a boost of necessity.

And I think that I would dodge the bullet even if I had magic. If you were a fighter and you had a bullet proof vest, you would still get under cover if someone pulled a musket out and tried to shoot at you. If you're in a firefight and anything comes at you, you're going to want it to not hit you.

[Knick]

And I think that I would dodge the bullet even if I had magic. If you were a fighter and you had a bullet proof vest, you would still get under cover if someone pulled a musket out and tried to shoot at you. If you're in a firefight and anything comes at you, you're going to want it to not hit you.

Well ya, a vest does not cover your face or limbs or below the belt. :P

But seriously if I had fullbody plate armor on and people where throwing pebbles at me I would not bother dodging it, thats a better relation then a bullet to vest for a bullet to magic comparison in this setting.

[fraggle]

*reads comments on Fate's dodging abilities*

* looks at particular scene in chapter IV*

*laughs silently*

[Doc Havoc]

Gee, why are you such a tease?

[Santo]

...You smug bastard. =,=

[fraggle]

My teasing is simply to draw enough emotional power from your speculation and ragings



Now, make a contract with me and become a betareader

[harouki]

Yes! I will do it!