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Thread: Create-a-Servant

  1. #5381
    Κύρια Ἐλέησον Seika's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackField View Post
    His stats should at least match the big western heroes, he's like the islamic equivalent of those guys.
    No, don't force it like that. Give him what's appropriate to his legend. If we're talking about Cú, under equal Masters, I would expect Lancer to win, because where Ali (so far as I've seen) might kill a few dozen in a combat, Cú is murdering thousands.
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  2. #5382
    -_- Nerdguy's Avatar
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    I didn't check the stats of other servants while writing it so maybe I was holding back a little.
    How about a B in Endurance and C in Agility?
    Last edited by Nerdguy; April 27th, 2013 at 09:41 AM.

  3. #5383
    は愚かである BlackField's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seika View Post
    No, don't force it like that. Give him what's appropriate to his legend. If we're talking about Cú, under equal Masters, I would expect Lancer to win, because where Ali (so far as I've seen) might kill a few dozen in a combat, Cú is murdering thousands.
    That doesn't really make much sense. Joan of Arc hardly went around killing thousands of people in one battle and yet she has good stats. Hell, I don't think any member of the round table really has Cu Chulainn's record in combat, yet Saber, Lancelot and Gawain are clearly as good, if not better, than him in single combat. Or fucking Sasaki Kojiro, his record isn't that great at all, yet he's the single greatest swordsman we've seen.

  4. #5384
    吸血鬼 Vampire
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    And another thing, Doesn't the number of people who actually know the Servant provide a boost to the stats.

  5. #5385
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackField View Post
    yet he's the single greatest swordsman we've seen.
    Lancelot fans, that's your que.

    ^
    not really, being summoned at the heart of your cultural fame gives you more weapons and skills. Stats are more the purview of how much juice you're getting from your master.
    Araya, what do you seek?
    「アラヤ、何を求める」
    ------True wisdom.
    「――――真の叡智を」
    Araya, where do you seek it?
    「アラヤ、何処に求める」
    Only within myself.
    「――――ただ、己が内にのみ」
    Araya, what is your favorite color?
    「アラヤ、好きな色は?」
    Blue. No, ora-- Auuuuuuuugh!
    「青、いや、オレンジイイイイイアアアっ!」

  6. #5386
    ジュカイン Lycodrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by terraablaze View Post
    Lancelot fans, that's your que.
    Lancelot was a weapons' master, don't go insulting him and saying he only knew how to wield a sword! >:V
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  7. #5387
    Well, Cu would be a lot stronger if he had a better master than Shitmasteromine, so really, being as strong as the FSN shouldn't be considered "controversial".

    Probably also if he had Riastrad, the state in which his aforementioned thousand man killings take place.

  8. #5388
    Κύρια Ἐλέησον Seika's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackField View Post
    That doesn't really make much sense. Joan of Arc hardly went around killing thousands of people in one battle and yet she has good stats.
    The Nasu version presumably had the potential to, though. It's worth noting that the historic Joan may or may not even have carried a weapon, so tales of her killing hundreds obviously aren't going to be around.

    Hell, I don't think any member of the round table really has Cu Chulainn's record in combat, yet Saber, Lancelot and Gawain are clearly as good, if not better, than him in single combat.
    Saber's decently well off for a comparable killing record, Lancelot is Gen's little pet (and generally gets put on at least Arthur's level as a combatant in the mythos), and Gawain mostly jumps to the highest level via Numeral of the Saint and Galatine. Neither of us were discussing Skills, and I already said that I could see Zulfiqar getting a boost.

    Or fucking Sasaki Kojiro, his record isn't that great at all, yet he's the single greatest swordsman we've seen.
    Which is contingent on maybe one of his stats. Besides which, Sasaki didn't exactly have a massive war to fight in, so that's a useless comparison. (I threw up kill numbers as a very crude measuring stick in any case).

    I uphold my point: Ali is famed as a warrior, but the details show that he's not extraordinary by Nasuverse standards, either in personal prowess (as roughly shown by battlefield kills) or parameters. Not extraordinary doesn't mean bad, quite the opposite. He's a strong candidate, but that doesn't mean just going crazy and throwing stuff at him that the legend doesn't warrant. Give him what's deserved and if that seems weak, widen or deepen your research to find something. If you still can't find something, your impression then becomes what's at fault.
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  9. #5389
    いっくわよー、なの! Daneel Rush's Avatar
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    Or you just write a Nasu-ish reinterpretation of the legend in which Ali is utterly ultra-hardcore.

  10. #5390
    は愚かである BlackField's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petrikow View Post
    Well, Cu would be a lot stronger if he had a better master than Shitmasteromine, so really, being as strong as the FSN shouldn't be considered "controversial".

    Probably also if he had Riastrad, the state in which his aforementioned thousand man killings take place.
    Saber only lost like 1 rank between Rin and Shirou. I'm doubtful Cu lost more than that.

    I just don't think the greatest Islamic warrior is going to be worse than the greatest Knights of Christendom. I'm gonna say if he can lift up shit that 40men can do, has the greatest Islamic sword and has Muhammad/billions of people masturbating him, he should have high stats and a NP that rivals the greatest swords. Seriously this guy is way more popular than any western hero, you don't see (many) people writing "King Arthur" or "Herakles" on tanks/fighter jets.

  11. #5391
    Κύρια Ἐλέησον Seika's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Rush View Post
    Or you just write a Nasu-ish reinterpretation of the legend in which Ali is utterly ultra-hardcore.
    Nasu distorts legends massively, but he very rarely makes stuff up out of whole cloth. And when there's good numbers available, pulling better things from thin air because you want to wank the Servant becomes very ... dubious.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackField View Post
    I just don't think the greatest Islamic warrior is going to be worse than the greatest Knights of Christendom.
    This is your problem. The Islamic legends aren't in the same scale as the Christian ones (this is not a qualitative judgement). You're imposing this weird levelling effect for no good reason other than 'they have to be equal'. They don't.
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  12. #5392
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    Well I'm not really sure of people masturbating to him.

    But yes he is a rather popular hero, but there have been Islamic warriors who had more fame as Warriors.

  13. #5393
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackField View Post
    Saber only lost like 1 rank between Rin and Shirou. I'm doubtful Cu lost more than that.

    I just don't think the greatest Islamic warrior is going to be worse than the greatest Knights of Christendom. I'm gonna say if he can lift up shit that 40men can do, has the greatest Islamic sword and has Muhammad/billions of people masturbating him, he should have high stats and a NP that rivals the greatest swords. Seriously this guy is way more popular than any western hero, you don't see (many) people writing "King Arthur" or "Herakles" on tanks/fighter jets.
    1 rank across the board is a lot. Besides, Saber(Shirou) was BCCBB, while Saber(Rin) was ABBAA+, so it's more than just 1 rank across the board, because of the luck.

  14. #5394
    は愚かである BlackField's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seika View Post
    snip
    So let me get this straight Joan has the potential too but didn't because what? That makes no sense.

    Secondly, the middle east was more hardcore at that time(considering you know people ripping the arm of the devil)

    Thirdly, your point about Sasaki is foolish and you should've worked that out. If all the stats were determined by legendary prowess he wouldn't be particularly powerful yet he is.

    Fourthly, you've ignored the class container's/fame effect on servant stats. Even if he was weaker than the container he'd be pulled up. He's at least as famous as King Arthur and Herakles, and much more popular than any of the other servants we've seen.

    Fifthly, Ali is the greatest warrior of all time. Thats what his legend says about him. The middle east wasn't shit tier back then, it was greater than the west, he should therefore be at least as powerful as the greatest western heroes of a simliar timeframe or else the middle east would've had its ass kicked.

    Sixthly, you yourself have put up a feat that would give him at least B rank strength. Its not particular common for servants to be great at one physical parameter, yet be average at the rest. They generally seem to be similar in all their physical stats.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Seika View Post
    This is your problem. The Islamic legends aren't in the same scale as the Christian ones (this is not a qualitative judgement). You're imposing this weird levelling effect for no good reason other than 'they have to be equal'. They don't.
    Nasu has already put in this "weird levelling effect", canonically its the class container. Gile de Rais has D rank strength, yet does he have any legendary feat that would give him the strength of 20men? Herakles lifted the heavens yet he only has the strength of 50men that can double under conditions to 100. Name one feat of Medea's that would give her the agility of 30men? Yet she has it.

    Nasu seems to judge his stats more by comparison. Herakles is the strongest therefore A+, not Herakles has the strength of 100men and therefore would have A+.
    Last edited by BlackField; April 27th, 2013 at 10:53 AM.

  15. #5395
    吸血鬼 Vampire
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    If you want a warrior try one of the greatest military generals in history Khalid Ibn Al Walid.

  16. #5396
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackField View Post

    Nasu has already put in this "weird levelling effect", canonically its the class container. Gile de Rais has D rank strength, yet does he have any legendary feat that would give him the strength of 20men? Herakles lifted the heavens yet he only has the strength of 50men that can double under conditions to 100. Name one feat of Medea's that would give her the agility of 30men? Yet she has it.

    Nasu seems to judge his stats more by comparison. Herakles is the strongest therefore A+, not Herakles has the strength of 100men and therefore would have A+.
    Technically he might be stronger then A+ because how does Mad Enhancement work?
    Araya, what do you seek?
    「アラヤ、何を求める」
    ------True wisdom.
    「――――真の叡智を」
    Araya, where do you seek it?
    「アラヤ、何処に求める」
    Only within myself.
    「――――ただ、己が内にのみ」
    Araya, what is your favorite color?
    「アラヤ、好きな色は?」
    Blue. No, ora-- Auuuuuuuugh!
    「青、いや、オレンジイイイイイアアアっ!」

  17. #5397
    吸血鬼 Vampire
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    Can someone try to make a Servant Data Sheet of Khalid Ibn Al Walid, I'd really like to see that one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And also, Umar Ibn Al Khattab was of greater fame than Ali Ibn Ali Talib

  18. #5398
    -_- Nerdguy's Avatar
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    I think I can try to make it after some researching
    I just realized that the middle east is filled with a lot of badass heroes
    Last edited by Nerdguy; April 27th, 2013 at 11:34 AM.

  19. #5399
    死徒 Dead Apostle Master of Chaos's Avatar
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    Okay, just for the sake of references, I'm posting this little guide that I prepared for myself. The seven traditional classes are pretty much faithful translations of official materials, while the other 3 are something that I made on my own.

    Saber
    The knight of the sword. One of the Three Knights. For Heroic Spirits that come under it, an appropriate legend for a knight of the sword is a matter of course, but the highest rank in all parameters except MGI is also required. Hence it is treated as the strongest Servant; but because it does not possess any special abilities at all (other than parameters), there is also a side that is particularly fragile against something outside the rules. The Class Skills Magic Resistance and Riding are provided. Also, many of the Heroic Spirits that come under it have as their forte to excel in instantaneous attack power.
    Standards:
    STR: ***** A
    END: ***** B
    AGI: ***** B
    MGI: ***** C
    LCK: ***** D

    Lancer
    The knight of the spear. One of the Three Knights. Right after Saber, there are many conditions to come under it; second rank in all parameters is demanded and – above all – the ones whose AGI is especially high come under it. Inevitably, their forte is hit-and-run tactics that capitalize on the reach and nimbleness of the spear. Many Heroic Spirits whose origins are knights come under it. Class Skill is Magic Resistance.
    Standards:
    STR: ***** B
    END: ***** C
    AGI: ***** A
    MGI: ***** D
    LCK: **** E

    Archer
    The knight of the bow. One of the Three Knights. A class that made the strength of the Noble Phantasm its forte; the conditions thus become not the size of the parameters, but possessing strong projectile weapons and unique abilities related to projectile weapons. Aptitude as a scout is high. Other than the Magic Resistance of a knight, also has Independent Action as Class Skill. Thanks to that Independent Action, it is possible to take action for a while even after the supply of prana has been severed.
    Standards:
    STR: ***** C
    END: ***** C
    AGI: ***** C
    MGI: **** E
    LCK: **** E

    Rider
    The mounted soldier. Heroic Spirits that possess legends with a deep relation with some sort of vehicle (not limited to creatures) come under it. There is a tendency of having low parameters when compared to the Three Knights, but that is compensated by the performance of the mount described in the legend. It can be said that this is a Class in which the owned weapon is more powerful than the Servant himself. As Class Skills, other than Magic Resistance, it also possesses Riding at an unusual high rank.
    Standards:
    STR: ***** D
    END: ***** D
    AGI: ***** B
    MGI: ***** C
    LCK: **** E

    Caster
    The magus. The conditions to come under it are just having attained the highest rank of magical ability. Because of this special trait, many of the Heroic Spirits that come under it have low fighting ability. Furthermore, because most Servants are equipped with the Magic Resistance Class Skill, it is evaluated as the weakest Class. Class Skills are Territory Creation and Item Construction.
    Standards:
    STR: **** E
    END: **** E
    AGI: ***** C
    MGI: ***** A
    LCK: ***** B

    Assassin
    The assassin. Because the only necessary requirement in order to be elected is to possess the ability to hide oneself, the Assassin Class itself can become the catalyst for the summoning. Naturally, mostly Heroic Spirits that were professional killers while alive come under it. But since they were just assassins, many don’t have magnificent legends as heroes and their parameters are low. Their Class Skill is Presence Concealment and a fighting style that capitalizes on this ability becomes their lifeline.
    Standards:
    STR: ***** D
    END: ***** D
    AGI: ***** B
    MGI: **** E
    LCK: ***** B

    Berserker
    The mad warrior. Heroic Spirits that went mad in battle come under this. So long this one requirement is fulfilled, it is possible to come under it even if all parameters are E Rank. Basically, this is a Class meant to strengthen weak Heroic Spirits. Normally, a condition in which a Servant can fully display the performance of the original Heroic Spirit would be ideal. However, the Class Skill Mad Enhancement strengthens the Servant into a performance that surpasses that of the Heroic Spirit in exchange of robbing his reason. Still, if its parameters are high, there are good chances that this “double-edged sword”-like Servant will self-destruct by exhausting the prana of the contracted Master because of these conditions. Since the curse of madness is lifted at the same time that the contract as a Servant is revoked, reason is only recovered right before vanishing.
    Standards:
    STR: ***** C
    END: ***** D
    AGI: ***** D
    MGI: **** E
    LCK: **** E

    Avenger
    The revenger. A class specialized for the summoning of anti-heroes. Conditions to come under it are to have legends as a villain that caused great evil. Parameters are not necessarily high, but many have unique skills and Noble Phantasms that make them a great threat. Its special ability is the random Wild Card, which grants possession of one Class Skill of any of the other Servant Classes.
    Standards:
    STR: ***** B
    END: ***** D
    AGI: ***** D
    MGI: ***** C
    LCK: **** E

    Saver
    The messiah. Conditions are to possess a legend as a martyr who brought salvation to humanity somehow. Many of the Heroic Spirits that come under it are widely famous all around the world. That being said, these Servants are not necessarily strong in combat and, in fact, most have abilities more suited to support roles. Class Skill is the Aura of a Saviour, which provides the highest grade of support to allied parties.
    Standards:
    STR: **** E
    END: ***** C
    AGI: **** E
    MGI: ***** B
    LCK: ***** A

    Leader
    The commander. Conditions are to possess legends of making others fulfill one’s wishes. Mostly Heroic Spirits that were monarchs or military generals in their previous life come under it, but the likes of “a sage with authority over demons” or “a feral child that controls wild beasts” are also eligible. Usually weak at one-on-one fights, but in exchange possess abilities and Noble Phantasms that excel at group battles. Class Skill is Military Tactics.
    Standards:
    STR: ***** C
    END: ***** C
    AGI: ***** C
    MGI: ***** D
    LCK: **** B

    Shielder
    The heavy armored soldier. Instead of swords, spears or bows, the Heroic Spirits that come under this Class have defensive armaments such as shields and armors as their trump cards. Naturally, they excel in defensive battles and boast top-class ability in regards to acting as escort for the Master among all Servants. As for Class Skills, they generally possess Magic Resistance at an unusual high rank.
    Standards:
    STR: ***** C
    END: **** B
    AGI: ***** D
    MGI: **** E
    LCK: ***** D


    Again, this was made for the purpose of self-reference. Don't take it too seriously.
    Last edited by Master of Chaos; February 5th, 2016 at 12:39 PM.

  20. #5400
    Κύρια Ἐλέησον Seika's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackField View Post
    So let me get this straight Joan has the potential too but didn't because what? That makes no sense.
    Oddly, having been given approximately no information on Nasuverse Jeanne's wars, we don't know. But this is the point I'm making: our Jeanne has no legends of killing hundreds of people because she didn't. Nasu's Jeanne at least carried a sword, so that's different. There is nothing useful to be done by saying that Nasuverse Jeanne didn't kill hundreds, because she very well may have done. Our history is no longer a good guide.

    Secondly, the middle east was more hardcore at that time(considering you know people ripping the arm of the devil)
    Hassan's centuries later (and I doubt he stole Shaitan's arm with pure stats); 'more hardcore' is a hilariously subjective measure; and you've stated something with no comparison. It's reversed easily enough by pointing back to all the absurdities Fergus or Cú Chulainn or Arthur or whoever else got up to. Hassan didn't kill a thousand men at one stroke, or flatten mountains by standing on them.

    Thirdly, your point about Sasaki is foolish and you should've worked that out. If all the stats were determined by legendary prowess he wouldn't be particularly powerful yet he is.
    You're very mixed up. Legendary prowess derives from their stats. I submit that if Ali was AAA in everything like you seem to want, he'd have a better record in battle. Moreover, Sasaki's a very very good swordsman; that doesn't actually make him a particularly powerful Servant.

    Fourthly, you've ignored the class container's/fame effect on servant stats. Even if he was weaker than the container he'd be pulled up. He's at least as famous as King Arthur and Herakles, and much more popular than any of the other servants we've seen.
    Fame pulls you up to your parameters in life, and might mess with your skills/appearance. Your posited overcharging phenomenon isn't attested. I draw your attention also to the fact that Gilgamesh still has great stats despite Nasu specifically noting him as obscure.

    Fifthly, Ali is the greatest warrior of all time. Thats what his legend says about him. The middle east wasn't shit tier back then, it was greater than the west, he should therefore be at least as powerful as the greatest western heroes of a simliar timeframe or else the middle east would've had its ass kicked.
    Approximately every legend everywhere says that its subject is the greatest X of all time. What's more, there was no serious contact between the 'West' at the time and Ali's army when he was a warrior. This was still the Middle East kicking itself around before the massive conquests of later centuries. And while 'greater than the West' is a pretty subjective measure, I'm going to at least contend that there's no good reason to make the two far different.

    Sixthly, you yourself have put up a feat that would give him at least B rank strength. Its not particular common for servants to be great at one physical parameter, yet be average at the rest. They generally seem to be similar in all their physical stats.
    And I said he should have B-rank strength. Read my bloody posts. That's not massive and extraordinary, the 'average Servant' is about on that level.

    Nasu seems to judge his stats more by comparison. Herakles is the strongest therefore A+, not Herakles has the strength of 100men and therefore would have A+.
    And your actual evidence for this comment would be?
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