Doctor Who Thread

[Dallas]

Just finished watching KnK 1 with my brother. It doesn't really seem like there was a lot of stuff there to miss. Really its the 'In Media Res' opening to the series.

I only was able to recollect scenes with loud music.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm pretty sure it's here someplace, if you go looking for it.

These two had to get made recently (the latter by myself just yesterday) so I am doubtful.

[Gilgamesh]

Alright, so some thoughts about the 50th and the Christmas Special then.

50th - Very fun episode. The chemistry between 10 and 11 was pretty much what everyone wanted it to be, although the War Doctor almost completely steals the show. I'm a little iffy on the actual resolution of the episode, though. I understand they wanted to change things up and the whole "quest for Gallifrey" is definitely a way to do that, but it just feels sort of cheap. I think what bothers me the most is the fact that now during the entire lifespan of 9, 10, and 11 he thought he destroyed Gallifrey when he really didn't. So all those episodes of him being all pained and mysterious and lonely and THE LAST OF HIS PEOPLE and all of that are now in retrospect completely stupid because nope they are actually out there you didn't do that.

Wait, actually, no, the thing that bothers me the most is that we are going to handwave away the fact that it's been an established fact that the Time Lords had gotten just as bad as the Daleks. Yeah, I get the whole "for the children" thing, but seriously what happened to the whole THE END OF TIME deal? Simply mentioning "the high council is doing it's own thing" isn't going to resolve that. There has always been a very good reason why The Doctor never tried to save his people from the time lock before.
"That's how I choose to remember them. The Time Lords of old. But then they went to war. An endless war. And it changed them. Right to the core. You've seen my enemies, Wilf. The Time Lords are more dangerous than any of them."
"You weren't there. In the final days of the war. You never saw what was born. But if the time lock's broken then everything is coming through. Not just the Daleks, but the Star of Degradations. The Horde of Travesties. The Nightmare Child. The Could-Have-Been King with his army of Meanwhiles and Neverweres. The war turned into hell! And that's what you’ve opened. Right above the Earth. Hell is descending."

All I need is an answer to that and I'll buy the whole thing. I'll get over how cheap this makes the serious moments of the past seven years of the show if they just address this. Otherwise I'm not going to buy it.

Christmas Special - I get that they were going for something grand and big here, but I don't think it worked as well as they wanted it to. The EXTRA REGENERATION EXPLOSION was silly as hell, but he actual regeneration itself was nice. The whole episode was obviously a send-off to the 11th's run and everything Moffat has written so far, but nothing really seemed to hold as much weight as they intended for it to. It felt like the whole thing was just going by very fast and yet very slow at the same time. Also SUPER AGED Matt Smith was really silly. Hasn't he already been Matt Smith for like a few hundred years now? Why is he now turning into bad-costume-effect old man? Only to have some silly reason to turn young again for the real regeneration? Also, what a cop-out with the "silence will fall" solution. It was really interesting, but because they didn't want to have Gallifrey return too quickly they had Clara give a speech about how great the Doctor is and that just wins them over so much they help out. I'm getting kind of sick of "he's the doctor and he's so great" speeches.

Blah. Overall I did enjoy both episodes, though. I liked Matt Smith's run. I'm looking forward to Capaldi, although his introduction felt a little... well, Matt Smith-y.

[Kieran]

Alright, so some thoughts about the 50th and the Christmas Special then.

50th - Very fun episode. The chemistry between 10 and 11 was pretty much what everyone wanted it to be, although the War Doctor almost completely steals the show.

Yeah - it's why watching it seven times hasn't gotten old.

I'm a little iffy on the actual resolution of the episode, though. I understand they wanted to change things up and the whole "quest for Gallifrey" is definitely a way to do that, but it just feels sort of cheap. I think what bothers me the most is the fact that now during the entire lifespan of 9, 10, and 11 he thought he destroyed Gallifrey when he really didn't. So all those episodes of him being all pained and mysterious and lonely and THE LAST OF HIS PEOPLE and all of that are now in retrospect completely stupid because nope they are actually out there you didn't do that.

Remember that, given the Doctor's relationship with time, it's possible that he did do that, right up until the moment they changed it. In fact, 10 and 11's explanation to the General for freezing the planet implies that yes, that's exactly what happened.


"Because the alternative is burning it. And I've seen that -"

" - and I never want to see it again."

Wait, actually, no, the thing that bothers me the most is that we are going to handwave away the fact that it's been an established fact that the Time Lords had gotten just as bad as the Daleks. Yeah, I get the whole "for the children" thing, but seriously what happened to the whole THE END OF TIME deal? Simply mentioning "the high council is doing it's own thing" isn't going to resolve that. There has always been a very good reason why The Doctor never tried to save his people from the time lock before.
"That's how I choose to remember them. The Time Lords of old. But then they went to war. An endless war. And it changed them. Right to the core. You've seen my enemies, Wilf. The Time Lords are more dangerous than any of them."
"You weren't there. In the final days of the war. You never saw what was born. But if the time lock's broken then everything is coming through. Not just the Daleks, but the Star of Degradations. The Horde of Travesties. The Nightmare Child. The Could-Have-Been King with his army of Meanwhiles and Neverweres. The war turned into hell! And that's what you’ve opened. Right above the Earth. Hell is descending."

All I need is an answer to that and I'll buy the whole thing. I'll get over how cheap this makes the serious moments of the past seven years of the show if they just address this. Otherwise I'm not going to buy it.

Well, now the possibility is open to explain that. As someone pointed out, with Gallifrey frozen (and possibly now free), both the Master and Rassilon could potentially come back as antagonists.

Christmas Special - I get that they were going for something grand and big here, but I don't think it worked as well as they wanted it to. The EXTRA REGENERATION EXPLOSION was silly as hell, but he actual regeneration itself was nice. The whole episode was obviously a send-off to the 11th's run and everything Moffat has written so far, but nothing really seemed to hold as much weight as they intended for it to. It felt like the whole thing was just going by very fast and yet very slow at the same time.

I can't argue that.

Also SUPER AGED Matt Smith was really silly. Hasn't he already been Matt Smith for like a few hundred years now? Why is he now turning into bad-costume-effect old man? Only to have some silly reason to turn young again for the real regeneration?

Because the First Doctor was about 700 when he looked as old as he did? And by the time 11 looks middle-aged, he's been in that incarnation for about 500 years, give or take? So it's not actually that far-fetched, and I noted a distinct (and I assume, deliberate) resemblance to William Hartnell in the aged Doctor.

As for his suddenly turning young - 10 showed the same process, when he regenerated. They basically handled everything within the pre-established rules, which I thought was nice of them.

Also, what a cop-out with the "silence will fall" solution. It was really interesting, but because they didn't want to have Gallifrey return too quickly they had Clara give a speech about how great the Doctor is and that just wins them over so much they help out. I'm getting kind of sick of "he's the doctor and he's so great" speeches.

Yes, but they couldn't actually have named him - that would've broken the cardinal rule. The one truly inflexible and absolute rule.

Blah. Overall I did enjoy both episodes, though. I liked Matt Smith's run.

Yeah - I didn't think anyone could ever really equal or eclipse Tennant, but I'm not sure that Matt isn't my favourite Doctor thus far. He's just - well, more like me.

I'm looking forward to Capaldi, although his introduction felt a little... well, Matt Smith-y.

I guess we'll see. He's an older Doctor, which has been gone a while (the same age as Hartnell, in fact) - and fastidious, apparently, if he can care about the colour of his kidneys.

[Gilgamesh]

Remember that, given the Doctor's relationship with time, it's possible that he did do that, right up until the moment they changed it. In fact, 10 and 11's explanation to the General for freezing the planet implies that yes, that's exactly what happened.

Given that they went out of their way to say that the Doctor won't remember saving Gallifrey and he'll think he destroyed it up until he goes through this episode, I took the implication to mean that he had always saved it and just thought he destroyed it. Either way, even if time was rewritten, it still cheapens the serious moments that came before I feel.

Well, now the possibility is open to explain that. As someone pointed out, with Gallifrey frozen (and possibly now free), both the Master and Rassilon could potentially come back as antagonists.

The show certainly made it sound like the vast majority of Time Lords had become complete monsters. We even saw an entire building full of them vote to end time rather than die, so if they boil it down to just "Rassilon will be a villain in the coming seasons" that will still be a cop-out, but I'll at least accept it. They just better at least bring it up and not just expect us to forget what they've been saying for the past seven years.

Because the First Doctor was about 700 when he looked as old as he did? And by the time 11 looks middle-aged, he's been in that incarnation for about 500 years, give or take? So it's not actually that far-fetched, and I noted a distinct (and I assume, deliberate) resemblance to William Hartnell in the aged Doctor.

I guess it was just the way the episode was paced, it felt silly. Not the good kind of silly either, I thought the whole aged thing wasn't needed. Especially if they are going to just make him young again for the real regeneration. It may be able to work within the previously established rules, but it's stupid.

Yes, but they couldn't actually have named him - that would've broken the cardinal rule. The one truly inflexible and absolute rule.

Agreed, they can't name him. But that doesn't mean his name can't be said without us hearing it. That already happened in The Name of The Doctor and since Clara could see/hear River it would make sense if she now knows his name as well. I mean between reading the history of the Time War and saying "so that's who" (memories of this episode later returned to her), hearing River say his name out loud, and then going through his entire personal timeline to save him, it'd be downright silly to think that Clara doesn't know his real name still. But, even if they didn't want to have his name said out loud, they could have come up with something other than "no he's the doctor and he's great so help him" AGAIN.

Yeah - I didn't think anyone could ever really equal or eclipse Tennant, but I'm not sure that Matt isn't my favourite Doctor thus far. He's just - well, more like me.

I'd say Tennant and Smith are tied for my favorite spot. Followed by Tom Baker and Sylvester McCoy being tied for my second favorite spot.

I guess we'll see. He's an older Doctor, which has been gone a while (the same age as Hartnell, in fact) - and fastidious, apparently, if he can care about the colour of his kidneys.

I just hope he doesn't feel like an older Matt Smith. I wasn't expecting a "funny" regeneration again. I was expecting him to have a bit more dignified entrance. I'm fine with my expectations being betrayed, of course, I just hope he's able to feel completely different than Matt Smith. This is only the second Doctor that Moffat has created from scratch, after all.

[Kieran]

Given that they went out of their way to say that the Doctor won't remember saving Gallifrey and he'll think he destroyed it up until he goes through this episode, I took the implication to mean that he had always saved it and just thought he destroyed it. Either way, even if time was rewritten, it still cheapens the serious moments that came before I feel.

Personally, I'm still in awe of the artistry of changing nothing, while making everything different - it was very creative and elegantly done.

The show certainly made it sound like the vast majority of Time Lords had become complete monsters. We even saw an entire building full of them vote to end time rather than die, so if they boil it down to just "Rassilon will be a villain in the coming seasons" that will still be a cop-out, but I'll at least accept it. They just better at least bring it up and not just expect us to forget what they've been saying for the past seven years.

Oh, I expect not . . .

I guess it was just the way the episode was paced, it felt silly. Not the good kind of silly either, I thought the whole aged thing wasn't needed. Especially if they are going to just make him young again for the real regeneration. It may be able to work within the previously established rules, but it's stupid.

It was also part of pointing out that 11 was his last regeneration, so it seems as though it was kind of necessary.

Agreed, they can't name him. But that doesn't mean his name can't be said without us hearing it. That already happened in The Name of The Doctor and since Clara could see/hear River it would make sense if she now knows his name as well. I mean between reading the history of the Time War and saying "so that's who" (memories of this episode later returned to her), hearing River say his name out loud, and then going through his entire personal timeline to save him, it'd be downright silly to think that Clara doesn't know his real name still. But, even if they didn't want to have his name said out loud, they could have come up with something other than "no he's the doctor and he's great so help him" AGAIN.

Actually, I think that another silent rendition would've been cheapening it - whereas declaring that "The Doctor" is the only name he needs is a satisfying way to end the eternal question.

I'd say Tennant and Smith are tied for my favorite spot. Followed by Tom Baker and Sylvester McCoy being tied for my second favorite spot.

Sadly, I've yet to see them all, so I can't properly evaluate them. Tom Baker is my major exposure to the "classic" Doctor.

I just hope he doesn't feel like an older Matt Smith. I wasn't expecting a "funny" regeneration again. I was expecting him to have a bit more dignified entrance. I'm fine with my expectations being betrayed, of course, I just hope he's able to feel completely different than Matt Smith. This is only the second Doctor that Moffat has created from scratch, after all.

Well, as I understand it, Moffatt will be leaving soon, so I expect it won't last, regardless.

[Gilgamesh]

Well, as I understand it, Moffatt will be leaving soon, so I expect it won't last, regardless.

I hadn't heard anything about this. When was this announced?

[Kieran]

A year or so ago. Apparently, running Sherlock and the Doctor simultaneously is a bit wearying (I can't imagine why ), so he'll be stepping down - as Head Writer, at least.

. . . Then again, I haven't heard anything further recently, so he may have changed his mind.

[Mattias]

I wonder who's gonna step up into his spot? Maybe they'll get Neil Gaiman to shun his novels and give in to his geek-dom.

[Dallas]

I don't think he'd step down now that he's bringing in Capaldi. If he truly planned to pass the torch you'd think now'd be the best time if ever.

[Gilgamesh]

I seriously don't remember hearing anything about that. Do you have a source?

I know Caroline Skinner, one of the executive producers, left the show earlier this year. Are you thinking of that?

[Kieran]

I seriously don't remember hearing anything about that. Do you have a source? I know Caroline Skinner, one of the executive producers, left the show earlier this year. Are you thinking of that?

It was just something a co-worker mentioned to me - and it's possible she was misinformed.

[Gilgamesh]

Well, I like Moffat so I hope he sticks around for awhile. I would enjoy seeing what someone else does with the series too, though.

[Fakessassin]

For the Time Lords becoming evil thing, one could say that while the Time Lords became as bad as the Daleks, the Gallifreyan populace were still decent people. Of course, the War Council have admitted to using every forbidden weapon in their arsenal, so it's not like the 50th Anniversary are saying that the Time Lords are good people.

[Kieran]

Very true - in fact, it's implied that the only reason they didn't use The Moment is because they were afraid that it would turn on them.

[Laith]

So…



Peter "I-play-Jonh-Pertwee" Capaldi.

[Dallas]

Not bad not bad. Was expecting something with more greys but this fits I guess.

[Mattias]

So…

Peter "I-play-Jonh-Pertwee" Capaldi.

My first reaction to that pic:

[Kieran]

Reminds me a little of a stage magician - which, for the Doctor, isn't necessarily a bad image.

[Fakessassin]

Simple and the dash of red that will flash out when the coat swooshes is pretty cool. Have to see it in the show to get the full impact.

[Kieran]

Pretty much my thought, as well - though it does look promising.