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Thread: Talent tree discussion thread

  1. #21
    Taiga's knight Tobias's Avatar
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    Well, let's see

    Single minded-lol

    result of determination-might work though you probably would need to add a limitation, along the lines of raises the AP cost of unrelated perks

    veil of mystery seems to be two perks at one, an auto magical counter and information gathering, weaken both or pick one

    knowlege manifest- would depend on the implementation, I guess

    my snap thoughts
    Ever wonder why Shirou likes Saber to have some tea when he starts cooking?


    Quote Originally Posted by hero View Post

    But I can admit Manny is a better character, hes an idol after all.

  2. #22
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Mellon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    Well, let's see

    Single minded-lol
    Why? A simple rank up is far cheaper (AP wise) then buying a completely new spell. Heck, the standard "get new spell" perk is worth 50 AP (5 completely new A rank spells or double that if you are a clock) in comparison to a single rank up to a spell or a Mystic Code.

    result of determination-might work though you probably would need to add a limitation, along the lines of raises the AP cost of unrelated perks
    I don't really mind, but I don't really see the reasoning. Its not like it totally overshadows all Tier 2 perks. Borrowed Ways would still be actually better in a lot of circumstances.

    veil of mystery seems to be two perks at one, an auto magical counter and information gathering, weaken both or pick one
    There are bunch of perks with 2 separate effects, Mage’s best friend in SoE Tier 3 is similar as it gives you both stronger familiars and an additional one at each rank. This counters the ability and reveals what it does. Two things that stem from the same source. Heck, you have things like Future Sight, which allow you to completely nullify almost any attack and with no limitations on type (with more overall conditions, but it is a Tier lower).
    Last edited by Mellon; November 28th, 2013 at 01:33 PM.

  3. #23
    Taiga's knight Tobias's Avatar
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    Quoting is hard on a phone so I am just using paragraphs. Anyway

    leveling up a spell? Sure, that's cheaper, but leveling up perks and/or codes? Dude that shit is expensive.

    and IIRC future sight works on one attack, is situational, requires prep and doesn't always work.

    that as I read it, auto counters without noticable restriction or penalty beyond (I assume) the prana cost for countering, as many times as needed. That alone would be almost OP for 5 talents, and also is full comprehension which is the type of thing alchemists have to spec into as a seperate, if cheaper talent group.
    Ever wonder why Shirou likes Saber to have some tea when he starts cooking?


    Quote Originally Posted by hero View Post

    But I can admit Manny is a better character, hes an idol after all.

  4. #24
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Mellon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    Q
    that as I read it, auto counters without noticable restriction or penalty beyond (I assume) the prana cost for countering, as many times as needed. That alone would be almost OP for 5 talents, and also is full comprehension which is the type of thing alchemists have to spec into as a seperate, if cheaper talent group.
    Ok, this is probably my bad. It just counters the first use of an ability on you. Not subsequent. E.g You would counter the fireball when you first experience it, but you couldn't counter the second time it is cast. But, by extension I didn't give it an MP cost, since it is relatively situational.


    leveling up a spell? Sure, that's cheaper, but leveling up perks and/or codes? Dude that shit is expensive.
    Mystic Code from B to A is 5 AP. Leveling up Sorcery Trait might cost more, but should still be in around the same "AP cost Tier" as the 5 spells Talent. Especially if you consider that you can only rank up a single thing once. Which means that at least 3 of those will go on spell rank upgrades (unless you invested super heavily in Mystic Codes).

    So its sort of a "less focus on spells, but you can tinker with your other stuff" deal. Otherwise there would be absolutely no reason to take it when you can just get 5 A ranks for the same cost.
    Last edited by Mellon; November 28th, 2013 at 01:50 PM.

  5. #25
    Taiga's knight Tobias's Avatar
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    I would have to check with verg, but I heavily suspect, based on previous statements he has made, that leveling a code is not 5AP, even if you ignore the need to acquire the materials to do so which is itself a time consuming task.

    I am all but certain leveling up a sorcery trait is more then 5-10 AP.

    And if that perk has just taught you the exact method to unravel a spell, how would you not be able to do that a second time...?
    Ever wonder why Shirou likes Saber to have some tea when he starts cooking?


    Quote Originally Posted by hero View Post

    But I can admit Manny is a better character, hes an idol after all.

  6. #26
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six RacingeR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellon View Post
    Tier III

    Behind the Veil of Mystery
    Requires Single Minded, Results of Determination
    0/5

    As someone who is constantly on the path of untread research, you have an instinctive knowledge magecraft and the supernatural unmatched by normal individuals. As such, it is actually easier for you to counter that which you have no knowledge of. When met with a magical or supernatural ability of E rank for the first time, you will be able to formulate a magical counter that will completely negate the ability used on you. Only works when you first experience a new ability. Each rank increases the countered ability's rank by 1. In addition the full details of the ability that was countered are revealed to you.
    I like the others, although I think that Results of Determination probably needs to be 2 AP rather than 3.

    However, Behind the Veil of Mystery is OP as fuck, I'd say that ti is even better than most Tier 6 we have seen. Perfectly countering anything with only the cost of prana, and also revealing all the details of the attack is way too much.

    I admit I like Knowledge Manifest a lot, though.


    quotes
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1984 View Post
    Besides, I don't see what's so terrible about looting anyway. It's only property, they're not actually harming anyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by lantzblades View Post
    when I say hero I don't mean hero in the spirit sense. I mean a morally grounded, good natured person who doesn't slaughter innocent people. No such person exists in the Nasuverse.
    [19:33] <@Airen> I like vampires!

    [00:12] <~Katie> i can't defy my origin
    [00:12] <~Katie> of gay memes

    [22:56] <@Sei> airen is pegging hero this time
    [22:56] <@Sei> for once airen isn't the uke
    [22:56] <@Kuroyuki> I thought Air was the Woman in the Relationship?
    [22:56] <@Airen> Yeah I kinda thought I was the girl too!

  7. #27
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Mellon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post

    And if that perk has just taught you the exact method to unravel a spell, how would you not be able to do that a second time...?
    Because it is fully instinctual. You don't think, you just do it, because you have a "sense" for these things. Its like sleepwalking.

    I would have to check with verg, but I heavily suspect, based on previous statements he has made, that leveling a code is not 5AP, even if you ignore the need to acquire the materials to do so which is itself a time consuming task.

    I am all but certain leveling up a sorcery trait is more then 5-10 AP.
    And creating new spells is also a time consuming task. In any case, an A rank spell costs 10 AP, when buffing your current one costs 2.

    This already gives us a 44 AP leeway to play with (5 A rank spells = 50 AP and 3 spell "upgrades" is 6 AP) and I presume you can Rank up your MC and ST for that sort of AP.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I would have to check with verg, but I heavily suspect, based on previous statements he has made, that leveling a code is not 5AP, even if you ignore the need to acquire the materials to do so which is itself a time consuming task.

    I am all but certain leveling up a sorcery trait is more then 5-10 AP.

    And if that perk has just taught you the exact method to unravel a spell, how would you not be able to do that a second time...?
    To give you an idea of the costs, upgrading Shizuka's knives from E to D rank costed me 15 AP, more or less, without having the raw materials and having low R.Link with Tetsuyama.

    Traits are so hard to level up that using the perk upgrade on them is not allowed during the timeskip, for what I know.


    quotes
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1984 View Post
    Besides, I don't see what's so terrible about looting anyway. It's only property, they're not actually harming anyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by lantzblades View Post
    when I say hero I don't mean hero in the spirit sense. I mean a morally grounded, good natured person who doesn't slaughter innocent people. No such person exists in the Nasuverse.
    [19:33] <@Airen> I like vampires!

    [00:12] <~Katie> i can't defy my origin
    [00:12] <~Katie> of gay memes

    [22:56] <@Sei> airen is pegging hero this time
    [22:56] <@Sei> for once airen isn't the uke
    [22:56] <@Kuroyuki> I thought Air was the Woman in the Relationship?
    [22:56] <@Airen> Yeah I kinda thought I was the girl too!

  9. #29
    Taiga's knight Tobias's Avatar
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    And verg has specifically said it's more expensive upgrading in the higher ranks, putting 15 AP at probably a very low floor for the costs.

    so again I say, dude, that shit is expensive.

    EDIT : or to put that a different way, I just ran some guess work but probably pretty close numbers for what would happen if zero had access to that perk and determined he could rack up about 150 AP worth of upgrades assuming I couldn't use it on his origin, it's over 200 if he can.
    Last edited by Tobias; November 28th, 2013 at 02:10 PM.
    Ever wonder why Shirou likes Saber to have some tea when he starts cooking?


    Quote Originally Posted by hero View Post

    But I can admit Manny is a better character, hes an idol after all.

  10. #30
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six RacingeR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    And verg has specifically said it's more expensive upgrading in the higher ranks, putting 15 AP at probably a very low floor for the costs.
    Yeah, although it honestly makes me wonder how we'll be ever able to reach that, since the yield for battles is so low. Then again we haven't really seen a legit victory as of now, so maybe the AP gained is more than I think.

    Also for the curious, going from E to C would have costed me something like 30 to 35 AP. I more or less think that going from D to C also costs 15 AP, and Mystic Codes may be less or more expensive to improve.


    quotes
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1984 View Post
    Besides, I don't see what's so terrible about looting anyway. It's only property, they're not actually harming anyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by lantzblades View Post
    when I say hero I don't mean hero in the spirit sense. I mean a morally grounded, good natured person who doesn't slaughter innocent people. No such person exists in the Nasuverse.
    [19:33] <@Airen> I like vampires!

    [00:12] <~Katie> i can't defy my origin
    [00:12] <~Katie> of gay memes

    [22:56] <@Sei> airen is pegging hero this time
    [22:56] <@Sei> for once airen isn't the uke
    [22:56] <@Kuroyuki> I thought Air was the Woman in the Relationship?
    [22:56] <@Airen> Yeah I kinda thought I was the girl too!

  11. #31
    King of Weak Style Verg Avesta's Avatar
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    Stuff costs more in-game than in the character creation.

    This is because it makes you focus on the way you want to develop your character, instead of buying everything that looks neat.

  12. #32
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Mellon's Avatar
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    Okay, so the Tier 1 perk I posted too good for its cost?

    Or does that mean that spell AP costs rose in relation as well?

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellon View Post
    Okay, so the Tier 1 perk I posted too good for its cost?

    Or does that mean that spell AP costs rose in relation as well?
    I guess it shouldn't allow you to power up the sorcery trait.


    quotes
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1984 View Post
    Besides, I don't see what's so terrible about looting anyway. It's only property, they're not actually harming anyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by lantzblades View Post
    when I say hero I don't mean hero in the spirit sense. I mean a morally grounded, good natured person who doesn't slaughter innocent people. No such person exists in the Nasuverse.
    [19:33] <@Airen> I like vampires!

    [00:12] <~Katie> i can't defy my origin
    [00:12] <~Katie> of gay memes

    [22:56] <@Sei> airen is pegging hero this time
    [22:56] <@Sei> for once airen isn't the uke
    [22:56] <@Kuroyuki> I thought Air was the Woman in the Relationship?
    [22:56] <@Airen> Yeah I kinda thought I was the girl too!

  14. #34
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Mellon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jormungandr View Post
    I guess it shouldn't allow you to power up the sorcery trait.
    I kinda think that it is needed though, because I think without it, it simply pales in comparison to the Free 5 Spells talent. Especially if you don't have that many different MCs.

  15. #35
    Taiga's knight Tobias's Avatar
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    My guess is leveling zero's sorcery trait, which is fairly average I would imagine, would ball park at about 30 AP for one talent point. You realize as a general rule talent points are supposed to be worth about 10 AP max at tier one right?
    Ever wonder why Shirou likes Saber to have some tea when he starts cooking?


    Quote Originally Posted by hero View Post

    But I can admit Manny is a better character, hes an idol after all.

  16. #36
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six RacingeR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    My guess is leveling zero's sorcery trait, which is fairly average I would imagine, would ball park at about 30 AP for one talent point. You realize as a general rule talent points are supposed to be worth about 10 AP max at tier one right?
    I don't think that's right though. Some of the Tier 1 talents give you 2 spells, that with cost inflation is something going way above 10 AP.


    quotes
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1984 View Post
    Besides, I don't see what's so terrible about looting anyway. It's only property, they're not actually harming anyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by lantzblades View Post
    when I say hero I don't mean hero in the spirit sense. I mean a morally grounded, good natured person who doesn't slaughter innocent people. No such person exists in the Nasuverse.
    [19:33] <@Airen> I like vampires!

    [00:12] <~Katie> i can't defy my origin
    [00:12] <~Katie> of gay memes

    [22:56] <@Sei> airen is pegging hero this time
    [22:56] <@Sei> for once airen isn't the uke
    [22:56] <@Kuroyuki> I thought Air was the Woman in the Relationship?
    [22:56] <@Airen> Yeah I kinda thought I was the girl too!

  17. #37
    Taiga's knight Tobias's Avatar
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    Clock tower get that, but then again, clock tower as I understand it is the single highest growth tree available. Meaning it's not really a baseline, more like a cieling. Like if something you have exceeds the general power of a CT tier, you need to rethink it. Equals it really, but that's at least arguable.
    Ever wonder why Shirou likes Saber to have some tea when he starts cooking?


    Quote Originally Posted by hero View Post

    But I can admit Manny is a better character, hes an idol after all.

  18. #38
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six RacingeR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    Clock tower get that, but then again, clock tower as I understand it is the single highest growth tree available. Meaning it's not really a baseline, more like a cieling. Like if something you have exceeds the general power of a CT tier, you need to rethink it. Equals it really, but that's at least arguable.
    China Order also gets that tho, and I think there was another faction that got it but I can't remember which one atm.

    China Order is probably the one who needs the most balancing done to it, though.


    quotes
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1984 View Post
    Besides, I don't see what's so terrible about looting anyway. It's only property, they're not actually harming anyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by lantzblades View Post
    when I say hero I don't mean hero in the spirit sense. I mean a morally grounded, good natured person who doesn't slaughter innocent people. No such person exists in the Nasuverse.
    [19:33] <@Airen> I like vampires!

    [00:12] <~Katie> i can't defy my origin
    [00:12] <~Katie> of gay memes

    [22:56] <@Sei> airen is pegging hero this time
    [22:56] <@Sei> for once airen isn't the uke
    [22:56] <@Kuroyuki> I thought Air was the Woman in the Relationship?
    [22:56] <@Airen> Yeah I kinda thought I was the girl too!

  19. #39
    Taiga's knight Tobias's Avatar
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    SoE itself is a one spell per talent tree however, making it a reasonable baseline for the tree.
    Ever wonder why Shirou likes Saber to have some tea when he starts cooking?


    Quote Originally Posted by hero View Post

    But I can admit Manny is a better character, hes an idol after all.

  20. #40
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six RacingeR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    SoE itself is a one spell per talent tree however, making it a reasonable baseline for the tree.
    Then I guess we can be more or less in agreement about improving one rank of a spell or a mystic code is alright, but the improvement of one rank to the Sorcery Trait is way too much.


    quotes
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1984 View Post
    Besides, I don't see what's so terrible about looting anyway. It's only property, they're not actually harming anyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by lantzblades View Post
    when I say hero I don't mean hero in the spirit sense. I mean a morally grounded, good natured person who doesn't slaughter innocent people. No such person exists in the Nasuverse.
    [19:33] <@Airen> I like vampires!

    [00:12] <~Katie> i can't defy my origin
    [00:12] <~Katie> of gay memes

    [22:56] <@Sei> airen is pegging hero this time
    [22:56] <@Sei> for once airen isn't the uke
    [22:56] <@Kuroyuki> I thought Air was the Woman in the Relationship?
    [22:56] <@Airen> Yeah I kinda thought I was the girl too!

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