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Thread: Talent tree discussion thread

  1. #41
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Mellon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    Clock tower get that, but then again, clock tower as I understand it is the single highest growth tree available. Meaning it's not really a baseline, more like a cieling. Like if something you have exceeds the general power of a CT tier, you need to rethink it. Equals it really, but that's at least arguable.
    I kind of want to know how you got 150 AP worth of boosts out of that, when your Sorcery Trait would cost around 30 AP.

    Which would mean at least 3 separate Mystic Codes (not Conceptuals) of about B rank. Since upgrading spells a rank is bound to be far cheaper then getting new ones.

    Heck, I think you can get an RM for about 40-50 AP (at least it was in that range when I last asked).

  2. #42
    Taiga's knight Tobias's Avatar
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    ^^actually I am not sure about mystic codes thing since it occurs to me one could just take one rank, pick up a nice boost to their code and then buy 4 ranks elsewhere, staggering a perk in such a way that the first level is arguably the best as opposed to the last, but it's more doable. Maybe the first 4 ranks can improve spells and the final a mystic code

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mellon View Post
    I kind of want to know how you got 150 AP worth of boosts out of that, when your Sorcery Trait would cost around 30 AP.
    For rather obvious reasons I am not comfortable with responding to this I am afraid.
    Ever wonder why Shirou likes Saber to have some tea when he starts cooking?


    Quote Originally Posted by hero View Post

    But I can admit Manny is a better character, hes an idol after all.

  3. #43
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Mellon's Avatar
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    I think Firo would get... 50-55 AP~ish out of it? Maybe a tad more if ranking spells up has increased dramatically in cost? Not sure.

    In fact, I think the other 2 Tier I talents (especially in combination) would pretty much make him OP. Really, the power boost is not even comparable.

    And who is this mystical powergamer who will cherry-pick their talents? Its as if you are saying that me or KT will simply drop 1 point into it and that is that. Its not like Verg needs to powergame his own system.

    And heck, I don't mind a general limitation that is something along the lines of "once you start on a talent you must finish it before picking a new one" for all trees. Why not? It would serve to prevent one point wonders anyway.
    Last edited by Mellon; November 28th, 2013 at 03:19 PM.

  4. #44
    Taiga's knight Tobias's Avatar
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    Or we could just play it out like I said anyway? Having the final perk be sort of a keynote is nice and satisfying, so why not make it something like upgrade one spell per level and then the keynote lets you upgrade a mystic code (assuming upgrading a code from B to A isn't widly exorbitant like 30-40 AP or something, in which case it might need to be tweaked to rank C or lower or something like that)

    if if you were planning to buy all 5 ranks it wouldn't effect you one way or the other
    Ever wonder why Shirou likes Saber to have some tea when he starts cooking?


    Quote Originally Posted by hero View Post

    But I can admit Manny is a better character, hes an idol after all.

  5. #45
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Mellon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    Or we could just play it out like I said anyway? Having the final perk be sort of a keynote is nice and satisfying, so why not make it something like upgrade one spell per level and then the keynote lets you upgrade a mystic code (assuming upgrading a code from B to A isn't widly exorbitant like 30-40 AP or something, in which case it might need to be tweaked to rank C or lower or something like that)

    if if you were planning to buy all 5 ranks it wouldn't effect you one way or the other
    Because if it is just "upgrading" a spell rank 4 times, it becomes woefully inefficient. There is literally no situation where upgrading a spell is actually better then buying a completely new one. Especially since you cannot upgrade an A rank spell, I would imagine.

    Upgrading a Mystic Code is simply not worth, since you end up with 4 "upgrades" instead of spells. And it doesn't change the fact that if you happen to not have a Mystic Code (something not really a core part of SoE), it is basically completely useless.

    As a comparison, if you happen to have Rune Sage, you are picking up 5 A Rank Forgotten Spells (Runes) from the other Talent alone. And reduce their cost by 20 MP if you happen to grab the other Tier I SoE Talent.

    A single rank up for a Mystic Code and 4 pitiful rank ups for a single spell each is nowhere close enough to be worth it. Better to scrap it altogether, because it simply becomes woefully inefficient at that point.
    Last edited by Mellon; November 28th, 2013 at 03:46 PM.

  6. #46
    Taiga's knight Tobias's Avatar
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    Wait, help me out here with this, I'm having trouble, if you were planning on buying 5 ranks anyway, what's the difference? Unless you were trying to sneak by multiple codes to upgrade (which for a rank one tier is absurd) it should end up the same either way.
    Ever wonder why Shirou likes Saber to have some tea when he starts cooking?


    Quote Originally Posted by hero View Post

    But I can admit Manny is a better character, hes an idol after all.

  7. #47
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six RacingeR's Avatar
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    The main problem on deciding this is that we don't have much of an idea of how much higher tier upgrades to mystic codes cost.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1984 View Post
    Besides, I don't see what's so terrible about looting anyway. It's only property, they're not actually harming anyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by lantzblades View Post
    when I say hero I don't mean hero in the spirit sense. I mean a morally grounded, good natured person who doesn't slaughter innocent people. No such person exists in the Nasuverse.
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  8. #48
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    I am saying that from my point of view, it needs to have all 3 (Sorcery Trait, MC and Spell Upgrades) to make it effective (even in that case, I would get less out of it then I would of the others).

    Heck, losing the Mystic Code upgrades would be preferable (since Mystic Codes are an arbitrary aspect that has nothing specific to do with SoE), but even then getting 5 actual spells (heck 10 for some factions) is vastly preferable to getting one incremental upgrade to your Sorcery Trait and single rank upgrades to your spells.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellon View Post
    I am saying that from my point of view, it needs to have all 3 (Sorcery Trait, MC and Spell Upgrades) to make it effective (even in that case, I would get less out of it then I would of the others).

    Heck, losing the Mystic Code upgrades would be preferable (since Mystic Codes are an arbitrary aspect that has nothing specific to do with SoE), but even then getting 5 actual spells (heck 10 for some factions) is vastly preferable to getting one incremental upgrade to your Sorcery Trait and single rank upgrades to your spells.
    You do know that Sorcery Traits are basically the single best magus perk on the whole? At least from starting ones. Just look at Mei, to give an example of what I mean.

    I think you are underestimating how much you would get from upgrading a Sorcery Trait.


    quotes
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1984 View Post
    Besides, I don't see what's so terrible about looting anyway. It's only property, they're not actually harming anyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by lantzblades View Post
    when I say hero I don't mean hero in the spirit sense. I mean a morally grounded, good natured person who doesn't slaughter innocent people. No such person exists in the Nasuverse.
    [19:33] <@Airen> I like vampires!

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    [22:56] <@Sei> airen is pegging hero this time
    [22:56] <@Sei> for once airen isn't the uke
    [22:56] <@Kuroyuki> I thought Air was the Woman in the Relationship?
    [22:56] <@Airen> Yeah I kinda thought I was the girl too!

  10. #50
    Taiga's knight Tobias's Avatar
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    We will find out, but I am just about as certain as I can be short of WoG it's going to be on the 25-30 AP end for something like B to A as oppose to 5-10. And even that I'm giving credit that you have at least some of the materials you need.
    Ever wonder why Shirou likes Saber to have some tea when he starts cooking?


    Quote Originally Posted by hero View Post

    But I can admit Manny is a better character, hes an idol after all.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jormungandr View Post
    You do know that Sorcery Traits are basically the single best magus perk on the whole? At least from starting ones. Just look at Mei, to give an example of what I mean.

    I think you are underestimating how much you would get from upgrading a Sorcery Trait.
    I think you are underestimating the ability to just add up 5 or 10 spells.

    5 spells > 1 improved Sorcery Trait. By a country mile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    We will find out, but I am just about as certain as I can be short of WoG it's going to be on the 25-30 AP end for something like B to A as oppose to 5-10. And even that I'm giving credit that you have at least some of the materials you need.
    And I am telling you that you get far more out of 5 spells then you get from upgrading your B rank MC into an A rank one (that you can use once per day).
    Last edited by Mellon; November 28th, 2013 at 04:00 PM.

  12. #52
    Taiga's knight Tobias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jormungandr View Post
    You do know that Sorcery Traits are basically the single best magus perk on the whole? At least from starting ones. Just look at Mei, to give an example of what I mean.

    I think you are underestimating how much you would get from upgrading a Sorcery Trait.
    Also, yeah, THAT.

    you do not get a sorcery perk upgrade on tier one. Maaaaaybe. And I mean maaaaaybe, if you somehow spent the 5 points on just the one upgrade. And that's with getting nothing else. Good lord.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mellon View Post
    I think you are underestimating the ability to just add up 5 or 10 spells.

    5 spells > 1 improved Sorcery Trait. By a country mile
    Then buddy, you know what? You take them 5 spells and run.
    Ever wonder why Shirou likes Saber to have some tea when he starts cooking?


    Quote Originally Posted by hero View Post

    But I can admit Manny is a better character, hes an idol after all.

  13. #53
    King of Weak Style Verg Avesta's Avatar
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    Because if it is just "upgrading" a spell rank 4 times, it becomes woefully inefficient. There is literally no situation where upgrading a spell is actually better then buying a completely new one. Especially since you cannot upgrade an A rank spell, I would imagine.
    No, this really isn't the case. In-game, researching a new spell takes a heck of a lot of more time than upgrading your existing ones, mainly because of common sense. You are starting from a scratch regarding new spells, you need to lay out all the new rules and effects that come into play when using this new spell. With an existing spell, you are building atop of what is already there.

    We will find out, but I am just about as certain as I can be short of WoG it's going to be on the 25-30 AP end for something like B to A as oppose to 5-10. And even that I'm giving credit that you have at least some of the materials you need.
    You are in the right ballpark.

  14. #54
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Mellon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    Then buddy, you know what? You take them 5 spells and run.
    Yeah. Whatever.

    Its about introducing alternatives, so that people wouldn't be basically forced to take one Talent because it simply blows every other Tier I perk out of existence.

    Not that there is a difference. At the moment, if you don't use runes, you basically only have one Tier I to start off with. But no. A 1 rank boost to your once a day MC will totally beat that dude who is just stomping at you with his 5 new A ranks.

    No, this really isn't the case. In-game, researching a new spell takes a heck of a lot of more time than upgrading your existing ones, mainly because of common sense. You are starting from a scratch regarding new spells, you need to lay out all the new rules and effects that come into play when using this new spell. With an existing spell, you are building atop of what is already there.
    Yeah, but this doesn't really come into play with talents, no? Taking a spell through Talent, basically equalizes them in "time and effort spent", no?
    Last edited by Mellon; November 28th, 2013 at 04:09 PM.

  15. #55
    King of Weak Style Verg Avesta's Avatar
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    Not that there is a difference. At the moment, if you don't use runes, you basically only have one Tier I to start off with. But no. 1 rank boost to your once a day MC will totally beat that dude who is just stomping at you with his 5 new A ranks.
    *looks at Thompson Contender*

    Well...

  16. #56
    Taiga's knight Tobias's Avatar
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    1 rank boost to your MC and 4 upgrades spells.

    - - - Updated - - -

    What's weird about this conversation is I'm still not even sure a MC Upgrade on tier 1 is balanced at all, it's actually a compromise on my part. I wouldn't consider it out of the question to be summarily rejected on that basis
    Ever wonder why Shirou likes Saber to have some tea when he starts cooking?


    Quote Originally Posted by hero View Post

    But I can admit Manny is a better character, hes an idol after all.

  17. #57
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six RacingeR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellon View Post
    I think you are underestimating the ability to just add up 5 or 10 spells.

    5 spells > 1 improved Sorcery Trait. By a country mile.
    Again, just look at Mei. Since it is the one we have the most information on, so I will use it as an example. Just look at the insane mileage she gets out of a first rank, starting Sorcery Trait. She can basically get A rank forgotten level reinforcement in stats by a mere 20 prana cost. If I count it right, her Sorcery Trait alone gives her like what, 10 different spells? Even Will's and Rei's are pretty damn good overall, specially Rei's which is the best example of a growth acceleration perk I can think of (hero did show the full Sorcery Trait in the chat once).

    Hell, it is to the point that one of the reasons I argue for a nerf and refocus of the China Order tree is that with just that Sorcery Trait alone and the current tree as shown by Verg makes her an absolute monster.

    Even if you can argue she is an extreme example, Sorcery Traits are just insanely good, and you get an incredible mileage out of them. They should be the hardest perks to upgrade alongside with NBK for a very good reason.


    quotes
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1984 View Post
    Besides, I don't see what's so terrible about looting anyway. It's only property, they're not actually harming anyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by lantzblades View Post
    when I say hero I don't mean hero in the spirit sense. I mean a morally grounded, good natured person who doesn't slaughter innocent people. No such person exists in the Nasuverse.
    [19:33] <@Airen> I like vampires!

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    [22:56] <@Sei> airen is pegging hero this time
    [22:56] <@Sei> for once airen isn't the uke
    [22:56] <@Kuroyuki> I thought Air was the Woman in the Relationship?
    [22:56] <@Airen> Yeah I kinda thought I was the girl too!

  18. #58
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Mellon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    1 rank boost to your MC and 4 upgrades spells.
    Versus 5 spells of any rank versus spell upgrades you can only use to boost a rank of a spell by 1, once. You get no added factors that typically come with new spells (a vastly increased versatility, etc) and you also increase the cost of your spells. And it synchronizes far better with perks that are currently available for SoE and magi in general (which basically scale with the number of spells you have and nothing else).

    Again, just look at Mei. Since it is the one we have the most information on, so I will use it as an example. Just look at the insane mileage she gets out of a first rank, starting Sorcery Trait. She can basically get A rank forgotten level reinforcement in stats by a mere 20 prana cost. If I count it right, her Sorcery Trait alone gives her like what, 10 different spells? Even Will's and Rei's are pretty damn good overall, specially Rei's which is the best example of a growth acceleration perk I can think of (hero did show the full Sorcery Trait in the chat once).
    I am pretty sure you can get far more mileage of an A rank Forgotten Reinforcement spell then a 1 turn boost to A rank (Master).
    Last edited by Mellon; November 28th, 2013 at 04:22 PM.

  19. #59
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six RacingeR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellon View Post
    Versus 5 spells of any rank versus spell upgrades you can only use to boost a rank of a spell by 1, once. You get no added factors that typically come with new spells (a vastly increased versatility, etc) and you also increase the cost of your spells. And it synchronizes far better with perks that are currently available for SoE and magi in general (which basically scale with the number of spells you have and nothing else).



    I am pretty sure you can get far more mileage of an A rank Forgotten Reinforcement spell then a 1 turn boost to A rank (Master).
    I think the fact that you can get a boost of 4 or 5 ranks to TWO stats for 2 turns, with the cost of 40 prana, is a bit above anything on the Master level.

    But look, my point is not even about how powerful that sorcery trait is, or how stat boosts break the balance in half. It is more of an argument that the sorcery traits give you much more mileage than 5 new spells, and specifically I am mentioning the fact that STs themselves give a lot of new spells themselves. Upgrading a Sorcery Trait would be like upgrading all those spells together, AND maybe acquiring more uses out of it.

    It shouldn't be tier 1 at all.


    quotes
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1984 View Post
    Besides, I don't see what's so terrible about looting anyway. It's only property, they're not actually harming anyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by lantzblades View Post
    when I say hero I don't mean hero in the spirit sense. I mean a morally grounded, good natured person who doesn't slaughter innocent people. No such person exists in the Nasuverse.
    [19:33] <@Airen> I like vampires!

    [00:12] <~Katie> i can't defy my origin
    [00:12] <~Katie> of gay memes

    [22:56] <@Sei> airen is pegging hero this time
    [22:56] <@Sei> for once airen isn't the uke
    [22:56] <@Kuroyuki> I thought Air was the Woman in the Relationship?
    [22:56] <@Airen> Yeah I kinda thought I was the girl too!

  20. #60
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Mellon's Avatar
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    This is pointless, since it is pretty much a matter of opinion.

    Considering how much variety you have with spells and how hard they scale with other perks like Element, Rune Sage, Magic Crest and more (unlike Sorcery Trait which scales with... absolutely no perks whatsoever), I think you can get far more out of 5 spells then you ever can from a small increase to your Sorcery Trait. Especially when you are an actual magi (and not a melee fighter in a magi clothing) and when there is no research or anything involved.

    You are of course free to say otherwise if you want. Its just how I see things.
    Last edited by Mellon; November 28th, 2013 at 04:38 PM.

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