Star Wars General Thread - Sequel Trilogy, All EU is now Non-Canon, etc.

[TomPen94]

TLJ > TFA

[GhostDIGIT]

'Last Jedi' Grosses Are Collapsing With The Worst Daily Holds Of All 9 Star Wars Movies

Not surprising, really.

[Arashi_Leonhart]

Now that I've seen it twice, more processing going on.

More musings on my biggest problem

Ultimately, I think the thing that bothers me the most is that the majority of my problems with the movie feel like you could have solved in the very way that a lot of the movie felt like it did things--it does a lot of work justifying "why x." Why does Poe instigate the mutiny? Because he's a hothead, because he feels he's smarter than the higher ups, because he can't see the forest for the trees. Why do Finn and Rose have to go to a casino? Because the one guy that can do shit is there and he's the only one that can do that shit and they're in a corner.

So why has Luke hidden himself away rather than proactively help? To me, the "that one time I tried it blew up in my face so I AM SHAMED LEAVE ME ALONE" feels so out of character and time is spent exploring it that it easily could have been something else. I get that part of the idea is to subvert what we think of Luke as in our heads vs what is, the whole legend vs reality thing, but I just feel like, given the time that was taken to explore this, all sorts of directions could've both worked better and been more in-character. Maybe he tries multiple times afterwards, and each group of students gets ganked by the First Order (wow, wouldn't that also build Kylo and/or Snoke up better in that regard) and he feels beaten up by the constant failures (also ties into the failure motif). Maybe he's come to the conclusion that he can't actively seek it out (like he did during his training and then lost his hand and got emotionally shattered) and is now waiting for the right sign (which also goes with the odd reverence he has for a religion and order he seems intent on letting die that felt at odds with cutting himself off from it to begin with). Maybe he went back to this origin of the order to uncover or discover a long-lost secret that is or can or should help everything (gives him a reason to, you know, actually be on this particular island) and Rey's too insistent on the smaller problems like the First Order (which would go with the burn the old and take us new thing, and also be an almost humorous reversal of Luke's "looking to the future and horizon" problem). Like, if you can use so much time justifying "why x" in any given situation, I'm pretty sure you can do it with Luke...in a better fashion than this.

I do quite like the direction with the new characters, in the end, even if some of it was handled kinda sloppily. And visually it probably is my favorite movie overall, even if individual images in Sith, Empire, and Jedi probably stick with me more. Could do without the romantic subplot tho.

[Mcjon01]

The romantic subplot was pretty funny though, since Finn was like zero percent engaged in the whole thing
Bet he’s totally going to steal that last line to use on Rey though

[SpoonyViking]

More musings on my biggest problem

So why has Luke hidden himself away rather than proactively help? To me, the "that one time I tried it blew up in my face so I AM SHAMED LEAVE ME ALONE" feels so out of character and time is spent exploring it that it easily could have been something else.

Wasn't that mistake - or rather, that culmination of a series of mistakes, from what it seemed - big enough to justify that reaction, though? It's not as if there isn't precedent for that with

Spoiler:

both Obi-Wan and Yoda hiding themselves away instead of helping the Rebellion somehow, or even just trying to help any Jedi who might have survived the purge, for instance.

[Arashi_Leonhart]

Spoiler:

Obi-Wan and Yoda both had actual purpose that falls in line with the second thing I suggested in that they're doing it for a specific reason that is, to the big picture, helpful: looking after the one with the potential to actually hit the enemy at its source. They weren't doing it because they were spending the whole time licking their wounds. It also is in line with their dogmatic perspective of not going for attachments (ie helping their fellows) and instead trying to look at the bigger picture and salvage that.

Also, the "Rebellion" wasn't something they had a direct line to if they wanted to help, since it was just as underground as they were.

Hamill is on record as saying he didn't really buy Luke being so devastated as to just completely give up, and that's sort of what I'm getting at. Sure, lick wounds and regroup. Sure, maybe go into hiding if it served some kind of purpose. But totally give up? The probably-unintentional funny moment to me was how he rants about the hubris of the Jedi Order before, you know, a common criticism of the prequel Jedi, and well-earned...but, uh, hello? MY MISTAKE MY MISTAKE WE'RE DOOMED BECAUSE OF ME.

To me the only real payoff to Luke being so 100% against training Rey was the lightsaber toss. And while that was funny, I don't particularly feel like it was worth making him so antithetical to the guy we know.

[SpoonyViking]

Spoiler:

Hamill is on record as saying he didn't really buy Luke being so devastated as to just completely give up, and that's sort of what I'm getting at. Sure, lick wounds and regroup. Sure, maybe go into hiding if it served some kind of purpose. But totally give up? The probably-unintentional funny moment to me was how he rants about the hubris of the Jedi Order before, you know, a common criticism of the prequel Jedi, and well-earned...but, uh, hello? MY MISTAKE MY MISTAKE WE'RE DOOMED BECAUSE OF ME

Spoiler:

Hmmm... Personally, I read that more as "twice in recent memory the Jedi teachings were powerless to stop powerful Dark Side users from rising to power, maybe we should face the fact they are inherently flawed", but I see where you're coming from.

Spoiler:

Obi-Wan and Yoda both had actual purpose that falls in line with the second thing I suggested in that they're doing it for a specific reason that is, to the big picture, helpful: looking after the one with the potential to actually hit the enemy at its source.

Spoiler:

Eh, that's debatable. We don't have any indication that Obi-Wan would have taken Luke as an apprentice if Leia hadn't sent R2 to him in the first place, for instance.

Spoiler:

Also, the "Rebellion" wasn't something they had a direct line to if they wanted to help, since it was just as underground as they were.

Spoiler:

Even ignoring the prequels, that's not quite true, considering Obi-Wan had once been friends with Bail Organa thanks to his service in the Clone Wars.

[Arashi_Leonhart]

Spoiler:

Hmmm... Personally, I read that more as "twice in recent memory the Jedi teachings were powerless to stop powerful Dark Side users from rising to power, maybe we should face the fact they are inherently flawed", but I see where you're coming from.

What you're reading is part of what they were aiming at I'm sure, but the fact that it's undercut by some really, really hypocritical statements makes me automatically question such an idea. Too, messing up twice out of "a thousand generations" is like Ichiro at bat.

Spoiler:

Eh, that's debatable. We don't have any indication that Obi-Wan would have taken Luke as an apprentice if Leia hadn't sent R2 to him in the first place, for instance.

I don't really know why this is a spoiler, 40 years is pretty acceptable as a spoiler-okay timeframe

You know, the first time they sit down together, "Here, have this laser sword. Here's a story about how cool your dad was in the jobs we once had. By the way, you're gonna come with me on an adventure that you personally have no investment in. I totally haven't been thinking about this, where did you get that conclusion." Also comes from that whole waiting for the signs sort of deal. Implicitly, that's what they're doing. Current EU also makes it explicit: "Message to all Jedi that got out of Order 66: go underground, stay away, but we've got A New Hope that's eighteen years in the oven, don't worry."

Spoiler:

Even ignoring the prequels, that's not quite true, considering Obi-Wan had once been friends with Bail Organa thanks to his service in the Clone Wars.

Yeah, he knows a senator from a nice, alpine planet. How exactly does that get him
A) connected to the Rebellion (which doesn't exist as an organized body until years later and is, you know, secret)
B) connected to a core world planet when he's in the middle of nowhere
C) keep them safe from each other when the whole point of splitting the kids up was to separate them like cells and hide any connection they have to All the Evils of the Galaxy

[Historia]

Not to derail the lovely discussion but I came across this:



I like the idea, but, something feels off about it...

[SpoonyViking]

What you're reading is part of what they were aiming at I'm sure, but the fact that it's undercut by some really, really hypocritical statements makes me automatically question such an idea. Too, messing up twice out of "a thousand generations" is like Ichiro at bat.

I think the hypocrisy is at least partly intentional.

Spoiler:

For all of Luke's talk about how the Jedi were useless at best, harmful at worst, it's pretty telling that he chose to hide away in their religious centre, and even at the end couldn't bring himself to destroy their ancient texts.

I don't really know why this is a spoiler, 40 years is pretty acceptable as a spoiler-okay timeframe

I was more worried about not giving away even hints about the new movie. :-)

You know, the first time they sit down together, "Here, have this laser sword. Here's a story about how cool your dad was in the jobs we once had. By the way, you're gonna come with me on an adventure that you personally have no investment in. I totally haven't been thinking about this, where did you get that conclusion." [...]

Yeah, but would they ever have sat down together in the first place if not for the droids? Sure, the prequels, for example, make it explicit Obi-Wan and Yoda had put their hopes on Vader's kids, but that's not how it comes across at all in the original movie - and even taking the trilogy as a whole, it's pretty telling they never even tried to teach Leia anything. Sure, all of that that can be chalked up to Lucas basically rewriting the whole story mid-movies, but it should still be considered.

As for my second point, what you're missing is that neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda had to live in the middle of nowhere. Sure, Obi-Wan was keeping tabs on Luke, but it's not as if it's exactly difficult getting in and out of Tattooine without attracting attention, considering it's smuggler paradise, and Yoda was spry enough to go toe-to-toe with Palpatine AND was a respected military leader with contacts across the galaxy (much like Obi-Wan, in fact), I'm sure he could have found a way to remain in the thick of things if he wanted to.
Then again, that's only taking the prequels into account. In the original trilogy, they both come across as being too old to do much of anything and it makes way more sense they would choose not to be involved in the affairs of the galaxy anymore.

[Mattias]

I don't really know why this is a spoiler, 40 years is pretty acceptable as a spoiler-okay timeframe

You'd think so, but people were pissed at me after Fellowship of the Ring for spoiling that Gandalf was still alive. That was almost 70 years after the fact.

[Trubo]

[Draconic]

Spoiler:

I basically agree with everything that Arashi has said on this page. I haven't checked to see if you got to this already, but what aggravated me almost to an equal extent was that Kylo Ren's already weak character remained one dimensional. He throws a destructive, yet nonetheless infantile temper tantrum in Episode VII, and… well, he just hasn't stopped. There are lulls, but he's still pissy about the same thing. There's nothing to him beyond how violently he's going to react to something because he's an emo kid who just refuses to grow the fuck up. You're upset that no one will be your friend? Then get over that one thing that happened years ago that disappointed you so much! Of course, now he has girl troubles on top of that.

The fact that he's now the emperorSupreme Leader doesn't help. Now the predictable outcome is that he's just going to devote all the resources in the entire damn galaxy to chasing after that one girl who didn't like him, and it's all her fault, no one understands his pain, so he just needs to whine more about how much everything sucks and she'll come around. cry me a river Ben.

[4score7years]

I haven't checked to see if you got to this already, but what aggravated me almost to an equal extent was that Kylo Ren's already weak character remained one dimensional.

Really? I thought he was one of the best parts of this movie? Much better than last movie.

Spoiler:

There are lulls, but he's still pissy about the same thing. There's nothing to him beyond how violently he's going to react to something because he's an emo kid who just refuses to grow the fuck up. You're upset that no one will be your friend? Then get over that one thing that happened years ago that disappointed you so much! Of course, now he has girl troubles on top of that.

also lol at that one thing

Spoiler:

At a time you were filled with uncertainty, the guy you trusted most betrayed you and tried to slice you the fuck in half while you were asleep?

lol big deal grow up you immature brat

[SeiKeo]

y'all lacking empathy

[Mcjon01]

y'all lacking empathy

I empathized with both Luke and Ben

[I3uster]

better than TFA

This couldve done with 30 minutes less runtime

[SpoonyViking]

I empathized with both Luke and Ben

Which was the point, really.

[Sesto]

I empathized with Kylo but still think he was pretty pathetic by the end of the film, and don't see how he could possibly be salvageable for the next.

[Historia]

kylo is the best thing about the new movies