Equilibrium Flux - Strategic RP

[Snax]

both would factor, although i won't base it too heavily off stats.

[Ivan The Mouse]

Can I have a Elor character who can also use alchemy?

[Snax]

:I


no, sadly.

[RacingeR]

I might have a bit of a trouble with meeting the deadline because suddenly tons of exams.

[Ivan The Mouse]

:I


no, sadly.

Ah, come on. You know that alchemy is the closest thing the Equiverse has to chemistry. It's like denying that metalworking and smelting doesn't have chemistry involved in them.

I mean, how does the Master Smith have a privilege of having a Magical Weapon if he wishes too?

[Snax]

Its not up for debate. Alchemy is Solas's gig, and the Elor are the type that don't make themselves known to mankind. If you're the hikkikomori type how are you going to employ 'inferior' human technology, even if its more magical?

They have magic weapons because they aren't totally incompetent in magic, thats all.

Here is a more detailed description.

-Elor craft: Take metal, craft it into their liking with tools and skill, then try and enchant it with a spell or so.
-Alchemy: Take various catalysts, base elements and ingredients. Put them together and let the magic infuse with the catalyst, thus improving upon the magical power infused.

This is very different. The alchemy you are talking about is 'reality' alchemy. The alchemy I'm talking about is a mix of that and a different idea altogether.


Because this alchemy isnt limited to metal, and neither does metallurgy actually require 'alchemy' to get good at. Were dwarves ever alchemists? I dont think so.

[Ivan The Mouse]

Its not up for debate. Alchemy is Solas's gig, and the Elor are the type that don't make themselves known to mankind. If you're the hikkikomori type how are you going to employ 'inferior' human technology, even if its more magical?

They have magic weapons because they aren't totally incompetent in magic, thats all.

Here is a more detailed description.

-Elor craft: Take metal, craft it into their liking with tools and skill, then try and enchant it with a spell or so.
-Alchemy: Take various catalysts, base elements and ingredients. Put them together and let the magic infuse with the catalyst, thus improving upon the magical power infused.

This is very different. The alchemy you are talking about is 'reality' alchemy. The alchemy I'm talking about is a mix of that and a different idea altogether.


Because this alchemy isnt limited to metal, and neither does metallurgy actually require 'alchemy' to get good at. Were dwarves ever alchemists? I dont think so.

Well, that's my point. The Elor isn't totally incompetent in magic, so at least they know some principles of alchemy, right? I mean, sure they aren't the type to employ magic or Equiverse alchemy totally but they could know the principles. Therefore, it is possible that they could incorporate some of it to their metallurgy, since metallurgy is a part of materials science, which in turn incorporates elements of chemistry. Case in point, Eternallium.

What I'm trying to say is, I'm not asking you to have an Elor Master Smith who has skill in "magical" alchemy, because I am opting for someone who knows metallurgy the best to create better types of steel, can create Greek fire or do "reality" alchemy in general.

And I think the Elor being totally hikkikomori contradicts the background lore of the game. I mean, they know the Elves existed and once were at good terms with them. Also, how could they get involved in a war if they were total isolates? I mean, once someone other than you knows that you exist, chances are this someone will mention you to someone and eventually they would know you are there. More so, the Elor have Walkers, which implies offensive capabilities. If they were so concerned with total isolation, they would be concerned instead in static defenses, fortifications and attrition warfare. In other words, mounted ranged weapons, walls and traps.

[Snax]

Well, that's my point. The Elor isn't totally incompetent in magic, so at least they know some principles of alchemy, right?

->Nope. Alchemy is a different kind of system developed by the scholars of Solas on the basis that there are materials and catalysts that can boost the power of magic and thus achieve certain effects that normally people would not be able to use. Elor don't use that kind of technology - they don't even use catalysts, and they only know of their technological machinery/metallurgy skills and directly apply whatever magic they can.

I mean, sure they aren't the type to employ magic or Equiverse alchemy totally but they could know the principles. Therefore, it is possible that they could incorporate some of it to their metallurgy, since metallurgy is a part of materials science, which in turn incorporates elements of chemistry. Case in point, Eternallium.

Read the backstory again - Eternalium is not created, it is a limited resource granted to them by their God. As said, alchemy is not strictly materials science in this verse - as a matter of fact, that is only a small part that consists of the theory of alchemy. The real uses, the magic boosting and etc, are mostly unrelated.

What I'm trying to say is, I'm not asking you to have an Elor Master Smith who has skill in "magical" alchemy, because I am opting for someone who knows metallurgy the best to create better types of steel, can create Greek fire or do "reality" alchemy in general.

Which thus points to the notion: Yes, because you know of metallurgy, you can mix metals to achieve the best alloys for whatever use you need. However, no, technically you cannot create Greek fire or do 'reality' alchemy, because alchemy does not exist in real life and is mere actual elemental science, which most of this world does not know of - but yes, as said before, Elor do now how metals work as said above and can use that knowledge to their needs. You do have access to more powerful fires and stuff, though, because albeit limited, Elor do have some magical potential.

I think the Elor being totally hikkikomori contradicts the background lore of the game. I mean, they know the Elves existed and once were at good terms with them. Also, how could they get involved in a war if they were total isolates? I mean, once someone other than you knows that you exist, chances are this someone will mention you to someone and eventually they would know you are there. More so, the Elor have Walkers, which implies offensive capabilities. If they were so concerned with total isolation, they would be concerned instead in static defenses, fortifications and attrition warfare. In other words, mounted ranged weapons, walls and traps.

Once again no. I did not say they were hikkis from the start, they went hikki like the elves after the Advent (backstory) because they; 1. took a lot of damage, or/and 2. did not want to deal with the humans that started taking over all the overground territory and thus did not want any problems with them. It's mostly 2 for the elves, but for the Elor, its both. There are folktales and legends about Elors and their Walkers, but nobody knows where you are, and the humans never actually tried to find them because hey, why even try when there are dozens of wars everywhere most of the time?

I also never said they didn't make any defenses. Their cities are basically fortresses and the long range walkers are the fortifications in essence. They merely are not static because monsters are everywhere and being static is like asking for a slow starving death. There are indeed traps, magic seals, and cannons surrounding their walls for defense. However, because monsters multiply so fast, wars of attrition do not help and the Elor actually have to go on an offense every now and then.

Does that answer your concerns?

[Ivan The Mouse]

->Nope. Alchemy is a different kind of system developed by the scholars of Solas on the basis that there are materials and catalysts that can boost the power of magic and thus achieve certain effects that normally people would not be able to use. Elor don't use that kind of technology - they don't even use catalysts, and they only know of their technological machinery/metallurgy skills and directly apply whatever magic they can.

Read the backstory again - Eternalium is not created, it is a limited resource granted to them by their God. As said, alchemy is not strictly materials science in this verse - as a matter of fact, that is only a small part that consists of the theory of alchemy. The real uses, the magic boosting and etc, are mostly unrelated.

Well, my point on the Eternallium is not that it is created, but rather they know the magical powers of it. Of course, that means they know principles behind its use because they are using it effectively, albeit in a limited extent. And now you are saying that materials science is a part of alchemy. That's also my point. Saying that alchemy includes materials science implies that chemistry is also included which, therefore, means that the Elor can be considered as knowing a small amount of alchemy, as seen from the perspective of someone living in the RP's verse.

Which thus points to the notion: Yes, because you know of metallurgy, you can mix metals to achieve the best alloys for whatever use you need. However, no, technically you cannot create Greek fire or do 'reality' alchemy, because alchemy does not exist in real life and is mere actual elemental science, which most of this world does not know of - but yes, as said before, Elor do now how metals work as said above and can use that knowledge to their needs. You do have access to more powerful fires and stuff, though, because albeit limited, Elor do have some magical potential.

Are you saying that Greek fire didn't exist and it wasn't used by the Byzantine Empire as a naval weapon during its heydays? Because that is what you seem to be saying, along with the implication that aqua regia does not exist and it is a mythical substance. Because aqua regia is simply nitro-hydrochloric acid. While it does involve chemistry in it's creation and isn't magical, the substance was discovered by alchemists. Same thing with Greek fire. It's simply chemistry and doesn't involve magic. And therefore, since materials science is a part of alchemy, it can be said that the Elor can create Greek fire and it would look like they're doing something magical and not simply doing basic chemistry.

To say that this world doesn't know elemental science and also say that alchemy includes elemental science is contradictory.

Case in point, their guns. It is established that they have semi-auto and full-autos. Which means they have discovered smokeless powder. Them discovering this implies that they know chemistry. Therefore, they can theoretically create Greek fire.

Once again no. I did not say they were hikkis from the start, they went hikki like the elves after the Advent (backstory) because they; 1. took a lot of damage, or/and 2. did not want to deal with the humans that started taking over all the overground territory and thus did not want any problems with them. It's mostly 2 for the elves, but for the Elor, its both. There are folktales and legends about Elors and their Walkers, but nobody knows where you are, and the humans never actually tried to find them because hey, why even try when there are dozens of wars everywhere most of the time?

Expeditions don't require large amounts of manpower and supply. A handful of people can be sent to find out where they are. Moreso, the demons attacked them once, so the demons know where they are.

I am not saying that the Elor isn't trying to be isolated and should never do so. My point is that they aren't as isolated as they think they are.

[Five_X]

Ivan, do not walk down this path, it only leads to butthurt for you.

[Ivan The Mouse]

Ivan, do not walk down this path, it only leads to butthurt for you.

What?

[Ayakashi]

Well, my point on the Eternallium is not that it is created, but rather they know the magical powers of it. Of course, that means they know principles behind its use because they are using it effectively, albeit in a limited extent. And now you are saying that materials science is a part of alchemy. That's also my point. Saying that alchemy includes materials science implies that chemistry is also included which, therefore, means that the Elor can be considered as knowing a small amount of alchemy, as seen from the perspective of someone living in the RP's verse.

Are you saying that Greek fire didn't exist and it wasn't used by the Byzantine Empire as a naval weapon during its heydays? Because that is what you seem to be saying, along with the implication that aqua regia does not exist and it is a mythical substance. Because aqua regia is simply nitro-hydrochloric acid. While it does involve chemistry in it's creation and isn't magical, the substance was discovered by alchemists. Same thing with Greek fire. It's simply chemistry and doesn't involve magic. And therefore, since materials science is a part of alchemy, it can be said that the Elor can create Greek fire and it would look like they're doing something magical and not simply doing basic chemistry.

To say that this world doesn't know elemental science and also say that alchemy includes elemental science is contradictory.

Case in point, their guns. It is established that they have semi-auto and full-autos. Which means they have discovered smokeless powder. Them discovering this implies that they know chemistry. Therefore, they can theoretically create Greek fire.

Expeditions don't require large amounts of manpower and supply. A handful of people can be sent to find out where they are. Moreso, the demons attacked them once, so the demons know where they are.

I am not saying that the Elor isn't trying to be isolated and should never do so. My point is that they aren't as isolated as they think they are.

I think that you're mixing the Alchemy of the Equilibrium-verse and Alchemy as you know it from the various sources of fiction and general literary stuff. The Alchemy of Solas is a thing of its own, available only to the alchemists of Solas. They have tools, knowledge and the capacity to do whatever gimmick they're able to perform - these are specific to them, and the Elor do not have that.

The Alchemists in the Equilibrium verse basically perform Magic via their tools, which themselves are in tune with nature and this can be qualified as a certain form of magic. It is different from what proper mages do in that proper mages simply incant a spell via a catalyst, or just through words. Their endeavor includes no sort of tools and other processes. The lack of the latter in casual mages, and their usage by the Solas Alchemists, is what makes the difference - using their tools and knowledge, attuning with nature, they can cast a spell much more fluently and efficiently. Alchemists do have transmutation abilities and the such, but these also works a lot more on a magical basis than on a scientific one.

Elor on the other hand use standard magic to increase the heat of fire or reinforce some metals. But it's just an add on. It is no core of their skill. What they do is use actual science and unrivalled forgery skills, mixed in with all the materials that they have inside the mountains to create Knight Walkers, King Walkers, and all of the high-quality weapons and armor they're really good at doing. Unlike the Alchemy practiced by Solas, Magic is not a big part, or even, a pivotal part of their craft. It's just a means to an end, while for the Solas, it is generally their final result.

On the side of fortifications and fixed turrets, the Elor probably do have those to ward off invaders, since they get invaded a lot - by monsters. Or well, attacked - their armory is more than sufficient to drive back the endless waves of Monsters that have attacked them.

Note that it's monsters, not Demons per se. The Mountains where the Elor dwell (the range inbetween Nithelig, Felur and Lea) are surrounded by Monsters, thus restricting the access to them. If one wants to even invade the Elor, they have to first deal with the monsters that flood the mountain ranged and constantly threaten convoys / travellers that'd be stupid enough to wander into the area. Once one makes it past the sea of monsters and treacherous mountainous terrains, expect to get bombarded by artillery of all sorts while trying to navigate your way towards the top of a mountain.

Arguably, the Elor are the hardest Faction to get invaded.

And it's not that the Elor think that they're isolated, they just have no interest at all in other people and see them with mistrust. If an expedition team miraculously made it to the Elor Cities' gates, then they probably would be given some food before being shooed away (if the Guard Captain is generous enough - a great deal of the Elor are Xenophobic as hell).

This discussion seems to be going in a sad way because an applicant is wanting, or at least appears to want to shift the RP's lore so that if suits their own way and design, rather than abiding by the GM's framework. Sure, it is always good to give suggestions and the such, but it seems as if you're trying to force snax's hand with all this hovering around the same point and ending up in semantics.

This RP isn't about Greek Fire.

[Five_X]

What?

If the GM says something is so, then it is so.

[Ivan The Mouse]

I think that you're mixing the Alchemy of the Equilibrium-verse and Alchemy as you know it from the various sources of fiction and general literary stuff. The Alchemy of Solas is a thing of its own, available only to the alchemists of Solas. They have tools, knowledge and the capacity to do whatever gimmick they're able to perform - these are specific to them, and the Elor do not have that.

It's not from fiction, it's mainly alchemy from its real life incantations. And I just find it funny that the focus of alchemy in Equiverse is the more complex one. I'm mainly just asking for the simpler forms. I mean, I ain't going make a character who is a Master Smith but functions purely with "complex" alchemy instead.

The Alchemists in the Equilibrium verse basically perform Magic via their tools, which themselves are in tune with nature and this can be qualified as a certain form of magic. It is different from what proper mages do in that proper mages simply incant a spell via a catalyst, or just through words. Their endeavor includes no sort of tools and other processes. The lack of the latter in casual mages, and their usage by the Solas Alchemists, is what makes the difference - using their tools and knowledge, attuning with nature, they can cast a spell much more fluently and efficiently. Alchemists do have transmutation abilities and the such, but these also works a lot more on a magical basis than on a scientific one.

Elor on the other hand use standard magic to increase the heat of fire or reinforce some metals. But it's just an add on. It is no core of their skill. What they do is use actual science and unrivalled forgery skills, mixed in with all the materials that they have inside the mountains to create Knight Walkers, King Walkers, and all of the high-quality weapons and armor they're really good at doing. Unlike the Alchemy practiced by Solas, Magic is not a big part, or even, a pivotal part of their craft. It's just a means to an end, while for the Solas, it is generally their final result.

Well, my point exactly. It's not a big part and it's not magical and more "complex" alchemy. I mean, comparing to what the Solas can do, knowing what makes steel strong or what elements can be combined to make an acid isn't impressive at all.

On the side of fortifications and fixed turrets, the Elor probably do have those to ward off invaders, since they get invaded a lot - by monsters. Or well, attacked - their armory is more than sufficient to drive back the endless waves of Monsters that have attacked them.

Note that it's monsters, not Demons per se. The Mountains where the Elor dwell (the range inbetween Nithelig, Felur and Lea) are surrounded by Monsters, thus restricting the access to them. If one wants to even invade the Elor, they have to first deal with the monsters that flood the mountain ranged and constantly threaten convoys / travellers that'd be stupid enough to wander into the area. Once one makes it past the sea of monsters and treacherous mountainous terrains, expect to get bombarded by artillery of all sorts while trying to navigate your way towards the top of a mountain.

Arguably, the Elor are the hardest Faction to get invaded.

And it's not that the Elor think that they're isolated, they just have no interest at all in other people and see them with mistrust. If an expedition team miraculously made it to the Elor Cities' gates, then they probably would be given some food before being shooed away (if the Guard Captain is generous enough - a great deal of the Elor are Xenophobic as hell).

Well, there you have it. They aren't isolated as they want to be. My point exactly.

This discussion seems to be going in a sad way because an applicant is wanting, or at least appears to want to shift the RP's lore so that if suits their own way and design, rather than abiding by the GM's framework. Sure, it is always good to give suggestions and the such, but it seems as if you're trying to force snax's hand with all this hovering around the same point and ending up in semantics.

The thing is I'm not shifting the lore into something that suits the designs I have in mind, I am simply pointing out any implications and subtext that the lore has, which I can then use to make my character.

I didn't demand that the Elor have Solasian 'magical' alchemy with them, I'm just pointing out that the underlying implications of the Elorian skillset. They know metallurgy, metalworking and engineering the most, therefore they know materials science. That's what I'm pointing out.

This RP isn't about Greek Fire.

I know. So why is it a big deal that I argue that the Elor would know, at least, a little bit of chemistry?

[Mooncake]

If the GM says something is so, then it is so.

.

[Ayakashi]

The thing is I'm not shifting the lore into something that suits the designs I have in mind, I am simply pointing out any implications and subtext that the lore has, which I can then use to make my character.

I didn't demand that the Elor have Solasian 'magical' alchemy with them, I'm just pointing out that the underlying implications of the Elorian skillset. They know metallurgy and metalworking the most, therefore they know chemistry. That's what I'm pointing out.

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It's not from fiction, it's mainly alchemy from its real life incantations. And I just find it funny that the focus of alchemy in Equiverse is the more complex one. I'm mainly just asking for the simpler forms. I mean, I ain't going make a character who is a Master Smith but functions purely with "complex" alchemy instead.

They know the basics of science and chemistry. But Chemistry isn't Alchemy, and Alchemy is what the Solas people do. Anything else that you're trying to achieve does not exist in this verse or simply isn't an idea that rummages about.

Well, my point exactly. It's not a big part and it's not magical and more "complex" alchemy. I mean, comparing to what the Solas can do, knowing what makes steel strong or what elements can be combined to make an acid isn't impressive at all.

That's not Alchemy, that's chemistry. Even then, you can't say that it is proper chemistry but something much closer to the knowledge of Metalworking and Gunpowder. Sure, they can work guns and the like, but being a gun and metal specialist doesn't immediately make you a professional chemist that can pump out all kinds of medicines or solutions - the Elor are good, but most of their craft revolve around Eternaliumm Rare Metals and Armor/Weapons.

Well, there you have it. They aren't isolated as they want to be. My point exactly.

I don't see what point you're trying to make there - the circumstances in which the Elor find themselves is isolated as hell, far beyond any other Faction's. They're as isolated as they could've ever wished, the only downside being the monsters.

I know. So why is it a big deal that I argue that the Elor would know, at least, a little bit of chemistry?

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http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread...=1#post1572351

What is this?


But most importantly, Moon and Five have reinforced the point:

"If the GM Says so, then it is so."

[Snax]

-facepalm-

Are we still discussing this?

That's not Alchemy, that's chemistry.

This is basically what i've been aiming at. I don't recall saying you can't be a gunpowder monkey. I just said 'you can't do alchemy' because 'alchemy is solas'. Also 'my version of alchemy is not what you are pointing at' being central.

Do I need say more when the others have said everything already?

Consider this discussion closed.

[Ivan The Mouse]

They know the basics of science and chemistry. But Chemistry isn't Alchemy, and Alchemy is what the Solas people do. Anything else that you're trying to achieve does not exist in this verse or simply isn't an idea that rummages about.

Well, alchemy was the proto-science of chemistry. And when I say alchemy here, I am talking about in the real life sense because, in the Medieval times, alchemy is what they basically called chemistry, except that it was treated with in a more mystical way because of alchemists' expectations regarding their work. The Equiverse is mainly and mostly medieval in nature, so I figured that they'll call chemistry as "alchemy" and think of it as magic, not a science...[0]

That's not Alchemy, that's chemistry. Even then, you can't say that it is proper chemistry but something much closer to the knowledge of Metalworking and Gunpowder. Sure, they can work guns and the like, but being a gun and metal specialist doesn't immediately make you a professional chemist that can pump out all kinds of medicines or solutions - the Elor are good, but most of their craft revolve around Eternaliumm Rare Metals and Armor/Weapons.

The problem here is we're talking about a race here, not a single person. Of course, a single person who has expertise in a field doesn't mean he'll also have the same level of expertise on related fields. But it's a whole nation or race that's being discussed here. Each of them will have a specialization and there's certainly going be a collaboration amongst them, therefore collective knowledge. One will know how metals should be, one will know how to mix chemicals for gunpowder, one will know how to forge them, one will know how to assemble forged pieces and make it work, put them together and there you have it, a Walker.

http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread...=1#post1572351

What is this?

[0]...Which is why I resorted to calling chemistry and materials science simply as "alchemy" in the context of this RP.

[Snax]

I said no more. You should have ended it there. Don't make this into an internet word fight about who is right and who is wrong, Ivan.

That is not the point here and I don't want this to turn into some random derp joint that would fit in the 7th.

[Snax]

Sooo the deadline was today, but since some people are having technical issues i was considering giving an extra four days or so. Derp?