Heaven's Feel Movies

[ADab1za]

You have no hope of understanding a thing about this movie if HF is your first Fate. The montage in the beginning only serves to tell you that these familiar-looking events also happen here. They don't even explain what a Servant is, come on.

You shouldn't assume what people think and they did UBW and Zero before why would they assume you didn't watch them ?

[Yoyomaster]

And no one was there to witness Saber Excaliblasting Rider.

Well, if you meant F/Z you're right but the scene where Saber uses Excalibur in Fate happened downtown, on top of a building to top it off.

[Astroprogs]

@Darkmaiar
Please check my post again. I edited it to elaborate a bit more on the "realism" part.

I honestly can't understand how you can see this 2-minute montage with a song in the background to be a substitute for the equivalent of ~5 regular length episodes.
I'll drop this because I honestly don't want to debate such an obvious point, as I see it.

Alright, I'll buy that the driver didn't notice Cu. What about the explosions behind him? And the cars being forcefully unrestrained and thrown from the truck he's driving? It doesn't need to be 12 PM in the morning for him to notice these things now, does he?

"I don't see your point here. I'm not sure how what I said has anything to with the VN since I'm talking about the movie on its own merits and not in comparison.

Your point that the truck scene, the original scene we're currently discussing, added value to the narrative. My point was that it added nothing, otherwise, the VN actually did the whole thing worse by not including a longer truck action scene that could be completely cut without losing any narrative value whatsoever.

You shouldn't assume what people think and they did UBW and Zero before why would they assume you didn't watch them ?

I'm responding to a specific part of the scan of the HF bluray booklet posted a few pages back. I'm actually arguing in favor of your point, not against it.

Well, if you meant F/Z you're right but the scene where Saber uses Excalibur in Fate happened downtown, on top of a building to top it off.

And there were no regular humans shown to us to see their reaction, prior to the intervention of the Church.

[Darkmaiar]

@Darkmaiar
Please check my post again. I edited it to elaborate a bit more on the "realism" part.

I get your point. And to an extent I agree with you. I just think your interpretation isn't exactly what he mean when he used the world realism, in that you're talking about the realism of their reactions and he's talking about the realism of them just being there in a manner that the audience can see. But there's not really an argument there so I won't go any further than that.

I honestly can't understand how you can see at this 2-minute montage with a song in the background to be a substitute to the equivalent to ~5 regular length episodes.
I'll drop this because I honestly don't want to debate such an obvious point, as I see it.

All I'll say is that I don't necessarily think it needs to be a substitute since, in my eyes, the narrative still makes sense without the minutiae of those interactions. As I said in my own edit, I've seen stories that start with way less explanation still managing to tell a believable and satisfactory story because exposition isn't necessarily required for what they're trying to say. And HF is easy to poke out as not being very expository because UBW is incredibly expository in comparison, and an easy comparison to make since they're two "interpretations" (so to speak) of the same events/characters.

Alright, I'll buy that the driver didn't notice Cu. What about the explosions behind him? ANd the cars being forcefully unrestrained and thrown for the truck he's driving? It doesn't need to be 12 PM in the morning for him to notice these things now, does he?

As someone else noted, maybe he had his radio on too loud and driving a large truck+trailer like that means he doesn't have the best view of what's going on behind him. Honestly, I totally agree that it pushes a little too hard on the viewer's suspension of disbelief but it's also not impossible for all of those things to happen without the driver noticing. I just feel like people are really hung up on it when none of the Fate's have been particularly concerned with appropriately showing how bystanders react to the things therein. And usually they just handwave it by flat out not showing people that reasonably would've seen these things.

Edit: At this point, I don't think there's really a reason to argue though. For the most part, I actually agree that fight could be shorter and wouldn't suffer for not having the truck scene (that being said, I think it still "works" as a scene and doesn't seriously detract from the whole experience like others apparently do). My argument was born more from the idea that the fight as a whole served no purpose within the film.

Your point that the truck scene, the original scene we're currently discussing, added value to the narrative. My point was that it added nothing, otherwise, the VN actually did the whole thing worse by not including a longer truck action scene that could be completely cut without losing any narrative value whatsoever.

Ah, no, when I said that I was talking about the existence of the extended Cu vs Hassan fight as a whole. Not just the truck scene.

The truck scene in and of itself is pretty superfluous. But within the context of the fight, it serves the overall purpose of portraying Heroic Spirits in action that the entire sequence is trying to show. And in doing so, it ties up what happened to Lancer (an unquestionably major character based on the very premise of the story) in a much better manner than just having it happen offscreen and talking about it after the fact. And also helps to legitimize how out-of-context and threatening the shadow is when it catches even the (now established as-) superhuman and otherworldy Lancer off-guard.

Taking HF as a movie that tries to tell something to the audience, this makes the sequence's existence very important. Even if it wasn't done perfectly, it would be worse not to have it.

[Astroprogs]

All I'll say is that I don't necessarily think it needs to be a substitute since, in my eyes, the narrative still makes sense without the minutiae of those interactions. As I said in my own edit, I've seen stories that start with way less explanation still managing to tell a believable and satisfactory story because exposition isn't necessarily required for what they're trying to say. And HF is easy to poke out as not being very expository because UBW is incredibly expository in comparison, and an easy comparison to make since they're two "interpretations" (so to speak) of the same events/characters.

They explained nothing that was explained from the very start of the novel, up to near the end of the first Kirei scene. You seriously can't see that montage and say that you get it, if you've never seen UBW and/or Zero. Way too much is just left out with the assumption that you already know it, which is the correct decision anyway.

The point is that you can't seriously target first-time viewers with HF. Way too much, in terms of world-building and narrative and emotional build-up is left to the previous routes to handle and for HF to build upon.

As someone else noted, maybe he had his radio on too loud and driving a large truck+trailer like that means he doesn't have the best view of what's going on behind him. Honestly, I totally agree that it pushes a little too hard on the viewer's suspension of disbelief but it's also not impossible for all of those things to happen without the driver noticing. I just feel like people are really hung up on it when none of the Fate's have been particularly concerned with appropriately showing how bystanders react to the things therein. And usually they just handwave it by flat out not showing people that reasonably would've seen these things.

Everything showed that doesn't make sense needs to be explained. Otherwise, you're just writing the story for them. You're providing the scene with details necessary for its believability when its creators didn't bother to add any.

And I can't handwave it if I feel it looks way too stupid and takes an unnecessary amount of time for zero narrative purposes and all for making a cool mindless action scene.

The truck scene in and of itself is pretty superfluous. But within the context of the fight, it serves the overall purpose of portraying Heroic Spirits in action that the entire sequence is trying to show. And in doing so, it ties up what happened to Lancer (an unquestionably major character based on the very premise of the story) in a much better manner than just having it happen offscreen and talking about it after the fact. And also helps to legitimize how out-of-context and threatening the shadow is when it catches even the (now established as-) superhuman and otherworldy Lancer off-guard.

But the truck scene truly serves nothing, in-context or otherwise. Take it out, and you still end up with an on-screen fight between the two Servants, an on-screen Lancer death and an on-screen presentation of how threatening and terrifying the shadow is.

It exists solely to have a longer action scene. Not a better one on the narrative level, just a longer one.

[astagadragon]

Realism in an anime about resurrected mythological heroes fight against each other, with immortal worm dude looming in the shadows, yeah right.



On serious note, when I watch movies, I want to be entertained. The truck fight scene entertained the hell out of me and many people around in the studio, so why not include it?

[Reign]

Everyone focuses on the truck part, but what I like about the fight is the other parts: the running through the city and then the part at the lake. In particular the lighting/atmosphere of the bit where Protection From Arrows kicks in.

[remirror]

I like all three parts of Lancer vs Assassin. The truck fight, like the Saber vs Rider skyscraper fight in Fate, is justified by the Rule of Cool.

[forumghost]

It might have been if it actually looked cool and not silly.

[pinetree]

is justified by the Rule of Cool.

Oh man I really thought I had to care about consistency and good storytelling, thank god Rule of Cool exists to save me that time, phew.


Anyway, why is everyone still talking about the truck.
The movie was good, truck scene was dumb and unnecessary, let's move on.

[Darkmaiar]

Sorry for taking so long on this. My computer literally crashed while typing this reply.

They explained nothing that was explained from the very start of the novel, up to near the end of the first Kirei scene. You seriously can't see that montage and say that you get it, if you've never seen UBW and/or Zero. Way too much is just left out with the assumption that you already know it, which is the correct decision anyway.

The point is that you can't seriously target first-time viewers with HF. Way too much, in terms of world-building and narrative and emotional build-up is left to the previous routes to handle and for HF to build upon.

You shouldn't target first-time viewers with HF. But I don't think that you can't. I honestly don't think it would be much different than introducing someone to the Nasuverse with the first KnK movie. It explains very little but still manages to tell a story that the audience can understand.

That being said, again, I personally don't think those scenes are absolutely necessary for someone to understand the narrative that Heaven's Feel is portraying. In my opinion, the narrative still works even if you don't understand those fundamental aspects established in other routes because they're not really needed for people to understand the story. Like Nasu knowing why Hippolyta has Artoria-hair in F/SF but would only explain it in mats because it's completely unnecessary to the story. I don't doubt that a viewer of average intelligence could connect what the montage shows of those events with information they learn later on about the context of servants and the HGW.

Everything showed that doesn't make sense needs to be explained. Otherwise, you're just writing the story for them. You're providing the scene with details necessary for its believability when its creators didn't bother to add any.

And I can't handwave it if I feel it looks way too stupid and takes an unnecessary amount of time for zero narrative purposes and all for making a cool mindless action scene.

The suspension of disbelief is literally only a concept because the majority of entertainment mediums don't follow that rule you want them to. Viewers are almost always required to take some things at face value because creators can't/don't/forget to justify things on their own. This just seems like a really arbitrary example to pick out and get hung up on within the Fate series, is all I'm saying.

[Astroprogs]

I like all three parts of Lancer vs Assassin. The truck fight, like the Saber vs Rider skyscraper fight in Fate, is justified by the Rule of Cool.

Fights in the Fate route are allowed to be as flashy as possible. This is the route where we're actually seeing Servants for the first time. Servants being way too flashy and way too powerful is the narrative purpose of that fight to showcase in the introductory route.

HF is not about the Servants, it's about the Shadow (and who the Shadow is). We already know what Servants are capable of from before, this is why the VN doesn't indulge into it in that scene, which helps the overall atmosphere consistency of the route.

They did it in the movie, as Nasu said in the booklet because they want to use Fate's introduction to the Servants (them being flashy and powerful) for the first-time viewers of Fate as a whole, which is a faulty notion in the first place, as I see it.

You shouldn't target first-time viewers with HF. But I don't think that you can't. I honestly don't think it would be much different than introducing someone to the Nasuverse with the first KnK movie. It explains very little but still manages to tell a story that the audience can understand.

That being said, again, I personally don't think those scenes are absolutely necessary for someone to understand the narrative that Heaven's Feel is portraying. In my opinion, the narrative still works even if you don't understand those fundamental aspects established in other routes because they're not really needed for people to understand the story. Like Nasu knowing why Hippolyta has Artoria-hair in F/SF but would only explain it in mats because it's completely unnecessary to the story. I don't doubt that a viewer of average intelligence could connect what the montage shows of those events with information they learn later on about the context of servants and the HGW.

I highly disagree with this. The value of having HF as the third route is essential for the depth of the F/SN story. I really don't want to debate this point because it was talked about to death before.

The suspension of disbelief is literally only a concept because the majority of entertainment mediums don't follow that rule you want them to. Viewers are almost always required to take some things at face value because creators can't/don't/forget to justify things on their own. This just seems like a really arbitrary example to pick out and get hung up on within the Fate series, is all I'm saying.

I guess that's my limit of the suspension of disbelief, then. At some point, I stop seeing this as a believable world and I start seeing the staff's contrivances to make a cool scene at all costs and I can't unsee it.

[GarlandGreene]

You guys are retarded...I hope you all burn in hell

You forgot the "/s" there, bud.

[Wandering Swordwoman]

You're all too worked up with few minutes fight scene


Now I want to know if Ilya meet Zouken place will be changed.
In the source they met in the forest when Shadow attack the castle, in the trailer they meet in front of the castle gate. Or they just gonna change the order of Saber Alter and Shadow vs Heracles scene

[Darkmaiar]

But the truck scene truly serves nothing, in-context or otherwise. Take it out, and you still end up with an on-screen fight between the two Servants, an on-screen Lancer death and an on-screen presentation of how threatening and terrifying the shadow is.

It exists solely to have a longer action scene. Not a better one on the narrative level, just a longer one.

In bold is exactly my point. It serves a purpose in context by giving the servants more screentime to showcase their abilities and personalities through combat. Which serves the overall purpose of establishing the power of the servants and then subverting it with the introduction of the shadow.

Though, again, I've never been arguing that the truck scene specifically is what's important to the narrative, only the Cu vs Hassan fight as a whole, of which the truck scene is an unnecessary but also passable component of.

Edit: I can see how you might misunderstand my stance since I have been arguing about the truck scene. But I'm emphatically not arguing that the "truck scene" is of narrative import. I'm arguing that the Cu vs Hassan sequence is because someone said that it wasn't necessary to show it at all, which is simply absurd to me.

[Wandering Swordwoman]

You forgot the "/s" there, bud.

wow more oil to the fire

[Gyrad1]

Instead of bitching over a spectacle of a fight scene, just bitch how much of a huge Wormslut wank fest we are going to get within the next 2 movies. All Illya and Rin scenes are going to be watered down or cut just for Wormslut scenes

[GarlandGreene]

You're all too worked up with few minutes fight scene

True, but this still beats discussing about FGO lore 24/7.

[Spartacus]

can't wait for that Dark Sakura Banner my quartz is ready.

[remirror]

Instead of bitching over a spectacle of a fight scene, just bitch how much of a huge Wormslut wank fest we are going to get within the next 2 movies. All Illya and Rin scenes are going to be watered down or cut just for Wormslut scenes

2/10 troll, way too obvious