Just become part of the solution then.Originally Posted by Spinach
Let's try to keep this somewhat serious. There can be some nuggets of good dialogue amongst the irony.
So let's go with real talk for more than a few pages.
Just become part of the solution then.
Let's try to keep this somewhat serious. There can be some nuggets of good dialogue amongst the irony.
So let's go with real talk for more than a few pages.
"Fate/stay night: not really an eroge, and not really a cooking sim, but actually an RPG wherein everyone’s primary stat is “self-loathing” and the goal is to level it up beyond all the other characters."
Back on topic, I also like how Archer is evidently a walking, talking reference to the alchemical concept of Rubedo.
My Fanfics. Read 'em. Or not.McJon01: We all know that the real reason Archer would lose to Rider is because the events of his own Holy Grail War left him with a particular weakness toward "older sister" types.
Gilgamesh is a metaphor for western capitalism and his corruption of Kotomine is analogous to western influence on Japan.
Wiki not terribly helpful and I'm lazy atm, the what?
This is so ridiculously obscure it must be authorial intent.
Rubedo was the last stage in the process of forming the Philosopher's Stone - the reddening stage that follows Citrinitas, the white stage. I think what IRuN is referring too here is the cycle itself, starting at Nigredo (decomposition) and moving on to Albedo (purification), and then concluding with the last two steps.
Wow, I hadn't considered that. IRUN's pretty spot on with that, I think.
Last edited by Mooncake; December 11th, 2014 at 07:29 PM.
figure wearing red clothes you sayRubedo is a Latin word meaning "redness" that was adopted by alchemists to define the fourth and final major stage in their magnum opus. Both gold, and the philosopher's stone were associated with the color red, as rubedo signalled alchemical success, and the end of the great work.
The three alchemical stages preceding rubedo were nigredo (blackness) which represented putrefication and spiritual death, albedo (whiteness) which represented purification, and citrinitas (yellowness); the solar dawn or awakening.
The symbols used in alchemical writing and art to represent this red stage can include blood, a phoenix, a rose, a crowned king, or a figure wearing red clothes.
In the framework of psychological development (especially with followers of Jungian psychology), these four alchemical steps are viewed as analogous to the process of attaining individuation. In an archetypal schema, rubedo would represent the Self archetype, and would be the culmination of the four stages, the merging of ego and Self.
Rubedo, a.k.a Reddening, refers to the fourth and final stage of the Magnum Opus, also known as achieving the Philosopher's Stone, the pinnacle of alchemy, which, through a process known as projection can be used to transmute base materials into gold. The Philosopher's Stone was thought to be theoretically possible, but unachievable through normal means barring nuclear processes unavailable to alchemists at the time.
As I see it, Archer, being the peak Shirou that he is, is an embodiment of this notion to further symbolize this.
The other stages are Nigredo, Albedo, Citrinitas, which mean black, white, yellow. These colors are not only present in EMIYA's design in some form, but are also color-coded to the "heroines" of FSN as well.
If you want to take this to even further tinfoil hat levels of overthinking, FSN was meant to have at least four routes with distinct romantic leads, but due to reasons couldn't meet this goal. This ties in to how Archer evidently is a from an Illya timeline, the missing step, symbolizing how the pinnacle cannot be observed being achieved. Homunculi are also a product/concept of alchemy as well, so there's more fuel for the theory fire, assuming it's not all one hilarious sequence of unintended coincidences.
Last edited by ItsaRandomUsername; December 11th, 2014 at 07:37 PM.
My Fanfics. Read 'em. Or not.McJon01: We all know that the real reason Archer would lose to Rider is because the events of his own Holy Grail War left him with a particular weakness toward "older sister" types.
Well, let's give it a shot, I suppose >.> .
Nigredo - Emiya Shirou grows to become Archer. He upholds his ideals throughout his life, but slowly comes to the realization that he cannot become a true hero because of his natural limitations. He continues on regardless, eventually ending up in a contract with Alaya, and then finally executed by the people he sought to protect.
Albedo - Purification. Archer becomes a Counter Guardian, finally given the ability to uphold his dream of heroism, though he is not capable of thinking when summoned as a Counter Guardian, acting more like a mindless force of nature. He is a simpler incarnation of the ideals he held through adulthood, and believes that he will finally have the chance to become a true hero.
Citrinitas (really, more of a 'false' Citrinitas) - Archer slowly begins to deny his ideals, and by doing so, himself. After continually cleaning up the messes humanity created and seeing the depths to which they will sink, Archer grows disillusioned with what he carried through his life and begins to nurse a hatred of his younger, foolish self.
Rubedo - Archer is summoned to the Holy Grail War by Rin. He has come full circle - a figure dressed in red that denies the ideals Emiya Shirou lives by, casually belittling them and seeking to end his own existence through the creation of a paradox caused by the death of himself at the hands of himself.
I remember starting to read fate and thinking it was silly how they talked about super heroes. It seemed kinda childish to me. But as I kept reading I realized the depth it goes to analyze the subject, but more than that, I was beginning to feel like it was actually courageous talking about such a subject. We love in a post modern world and almost no story tries to distinct between black and white anymore. To actually try and do that, and to measure the faults in such a view was inspiring for me. It wasn't very clear in fate, but in UBW you kinda get it, and in HF you realise its true nature.
When I got to the choice between being a hero and saving the one you love, and the screen tore apart, so did my heart. I felt it was a major turning point for both the novel, and the reader, having to consciously make such a difficult decision.
I'll leave my thoughts on tsukihime knk for later...
Post-postmodern, really, postmodernism isn't in vogue anymore.
Edit: guess I was late.
Let’s take a look at the earliest look we get of Sakura, in Zero.
Yeah I know lolZero but whatever; it’s only two short scenes.
Her first scene is when Kariya is Kariying it up in the Matou mansion. Understandably she gets scared shitless by the crazy worm-infested hobo. Also Sakura immediately notice that he’s gone nuts so props to her for that, but this isn’t about Kariya so let’s gloss over how awful he is.
Unfortunately the scene is viewed through Kariyavision, so it’s hard to take it as facts as far as Sakura’s character, but we can at least take away two facts from it:
1. Sakura is actively trying to numb her feelings to cope with Zouken’s treatment.
2. The two know each other well and are on okay terms.
This occurs just before Waver summons his Servant.
Cut to a few days later...
3. Sakura’s reaction to someone that she knows, and presumably kind of likes, gruesomely dying is to nod and take a lesson from it. Not cry or anything, just “wow what an idiot why is he even here.”Sakura stared at the corpse of the man who had fallen before her in the icy-cold darkness of the worm storage. This man was muttering to himself even till the end, and a satisfied smile was on his face even as he died.
How odd. Why would this man return here? Why did he still want to live when he was in such a despicable state?
Although Sakura couldn’t understand why, she clearly knew why he was in anguish, and why he was dead.
– You must not disobey Grandfather.
Everyone in the Makiri house knew that, but why wouldn’t this man obey that rule? He was an adult, but he was helplessly stupid.
Why, why would this man choose such a meaningless death?
After a brief consideration – ahh, that was why. Sakura suddenly understood it.
This must be her lesson tonight.
A lesson to teach her what would happen to those who disobeyed Grandfather’s will. This man died here so Sakura could see a real example with her own eyes.
Yes, I understood, Grandfather.
The girl nodded obediently. She burned this scene deep into her memory while she stared, unmoving, at the corpse surrounded by worms that was gradually becoming smaller and smaller.
(Also, I just noticed that either Gen or the translator slipped and called it the Makiri house. QUALITY.)
We now exit Genland, and head into Fate/Stay Night itself. If you feel I’m overlooking some vital scenes, let me know.
(Incidentally, I never noticed before but Sakura is the only person who picks up on the fact that Shinji genuinely likes Shirou.)
Anyway, our first look at Sakura chronologically is in Distortion. Much like in Zero’s first scene, the information we get is twisted, this time by Shinjivision. However, we can get the following fact from it.
4. Sakura knew that magecraft was a big deal for Shinji, and hid from him that he was being fooled. Her knowing that it was important to him is obvious from:
4. A) the fact that she avoided looking him in the eyes.
4. B) Her repeated apologies on the matter.
We can assume Zouken told her to keep up the charade, so this only makes her guilty of being willing to lie to Shinji about important things in order to not be punished by Zouken.
Then, at the beginning of the Grail War, the following is true of all routes
5. Sakura knows that Shirou is part of the Holy Grail War. Despite this, she never talks to him about it despite the fact that it’s immediately obvious to everyone that he’s out of his depth.
So, Sakura is willing to let Shirou, someone that she loves, get into a fight to the death without proper information because she’s afraid of what he’d think of her.
6. In fact, Sakura takes no actions whatsoever toward the Holy Grail War unless Shirou shows a romantic interest toward her. This includes multiple cases of Rider killing Shirou throughout the routes. She could have just told Rider not to attack Shirou.
Now, in fairness, she did make Shinji promise not to kill Shirou in Heaven’s Feel. However, that doesn’t really reflect well on her as a person, because it means she only cares enough to do so if Shirou picks her over Rin and Saber.
This leads us to the next thing about Sakura common in all the routes.
7. She knows about Bloodfort, and ignores it; basically dooming everyone else in the school to die to avoid getting hurt herself. (And, really, she probably wouldn’t even get hurt if she didn’t let it happen considering it’s not like Shinji can bypass Rider and I doubt Zouken cares.)
Specifics of Zouken caring or not aside, I don’t think anyone can say that letting an entire school get melted when you could prevent it by all of telling Rider not to do that is the action of a good person.
Onward to Heaven's Feel.
Sakura doesn’t acknowledge the Shadow’s actions as her own until Nightmare, awakening, so until that point they can’t be used to judge her character.
Let’s thus move on to Matou Sakura (IV). That scene gives us two more facts.
8. Sakura, while willing to let Shirou kill her, still manipulates his emotions to stop him from doing so. That is to say, Sakura herself doesn’t think she should die; her guilt in that scene comes from manipulating Shirou. She only accepted that, if Shirou wanted to kill her, it was probably correct.
On to Last Piece, in which she murders Shinji. Now, Shinji was pretty nuts by that point so let’s not pass judgment on the act of killing itself.
9. Sakura, after killing him, feels no guilt and only thinks that she should have done so earlier.
10. She realizes fully at that point that she killed all those people as the Shadow, and her reaction is to find it funny and think that she should keep going. The scene even makes it a point to note that this is her own will.
Those are thus definitely Sakura’s actions and thoughts, and by consequence the events of Sacrilege – Sisters (VI) are as well. To her credit, she does hesitate just short of killing Rin so I guess that sequence of events just hasThe girl’s consciousness ends here.
No, to be more accurate, it changes.
It’s merely that her subconscious has risen to the surface.
11. Sakura enjoying torturing someone weaker than herself while on a power trip and then trying to kill both Shirou and Rin.
Death of a Saint doesn’t add anything of note, aside from once more affirming that yes, this is definitely Sakura and not someone controlling her.
After Rin opts not to kill her in Sister (VII), things change again.
12. Sakura feels guilty for having killed (or not, but she thinks so) Rin, someone who was just nice to her and proved that she loved her. Now Sakura is willing to kill herself, and Angra Mainyu starts taking action.
We reach the first end, Cherry Blossoms Dream.
13. Sakura certainly does feel guilty to the point that she basically goes into nutty denial mode, but only at Shirou’s death.Notably, not once in the VN does Sakura seem to actually feel guilt for anyone’s death except Shirou and Rin...and even then, only if Shirou and Rin were being nice to her at the time they died. (She sure feels no remorse for torturing Rin in Femme Fatale.)
So yeah, all evidence seems to point to Sakura only caring about people’s lives if they’re people she both knows personally and that are nice to her all the time.
The closest thing we get is her vaguely mentioning guilt in HF’s True End, but that’s all; no sign that she felt motivated to do anything by that ‘guilt’.
So in summary: Stops herself from feeling anything at the death of people she knows, makes no effort to save Shirou unless he reciprocates her love, lets Shinji gello the school they go to, feels no guilt for killing tons of people, enjoys torturing people she doesn't like, and only shows regret if she kills someone who shows that they loved her at the moment she kills them.
Yeah, I think a case can be made that Sakura is a pretty awful person.
Last edited by Siriel; December 11th, 2014 at 11:56 PM.
Ragnarok, come day of wrath
That fallen souls might bear our plea.
To hasten the Divine's return.
O piteous Wanderer.
None of you may ever let Mike know this post exists.
When you put it like that...So in summary: Stops herself from feeling anything at the death of people she knows, makes no effort to save Shirou unless he reciprocates her love, lets Shinji gello the school they go to, feels no guilt for killing tons of people, enjoys torturing people she doesn't like, and only shows regret if she kills someone who shows that they loved her at the moment she kills them.
Oh also if Sakura doesn't have enough affection towards you near the beginning of the route the shadow eats you and you die.
Yeah but I can't find it in myself to condemn someone for unconscious thoughts.
Ragnarok, come day of wrath
That fallen souls might bear our plea.
To hasten the Divine's return.
O piteous Wanderer.
Yeah but shes so nice when in a domestic setting => she must be nice.
Also, while I don't understand the exact details, apparantly mirrormoon fumbled the ball on a TL in HF. It was sakura who starts the bloodfort in HF, not shinji. Again, I don't understand the exact details 'cause fuck HF, and according to alt it was like a reflex action or something she didn't consciously do, or something like that, but it still happened.
Last edited by Tobias; December 11th, 2014 at 10:15 PM.
Yeah. She also shoots shadows at Rin, and if you don't choose to push Rin out of the way, the shadows change course and go towards Shirou anyway.
I mean, she didn't mean to do it and kinda sent herself into a coma immediately after out of guilt, but it did happen.
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