Ancient Literature Discussion (History, Myth, Philosophy &c.)

[RoydGolden]

Speaking of which, is there anything actually suggesting Kojiro didn't actually exist/was a pseudonym? The closest thing I can find/come up with is that Matahachi kind of uses it as one in the Eji Yoshikawa novel but I kind of doubt that's the cause.

From what I've heard arguments that Kojiro was fictional tend to be based on how Musashi never mentioned him in his own autobiography, combined with a few other oddities and inconsistencies in the description of their famous duel.

[LegalLoliLover]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Tso%27s_chicken As mentioned before, we Chinese love praising our conquerors. FYI, Manchurians by their own words are not Chinese, but those who defeated the (Han) Chinese. To put things into perspective, this would be as if during a High Castle or Wolfenstein world, the US had a dish named after Reinhard Heydrich.

[LegalLoliLover]

For some odd reason, most versions of Makai Tensho leave out Gracia and Mori Soiken. They are like the Haydee to most adaptations of Count of Monte Cristo. Actually, when was the original Makai Tensho book written?

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Tso%27s_chicken As mentioned before, we Chinese love praising our conquerors. FYI, Manchurians by their own words are not Chinese, but those who defeated the (Han) Chinese. To put things into perspective, this would be as if during a High Castle or Wolfenstein world, the US had a dish named after Reinhard Heydrich.

I honestly dislike High Castle and Wolfenstein premises because of how damn impossible they actually are without the Nazis getting into absolutely ridiculous fantasy territory.

[LegalLoliLover]

Well, that wasn't my main point, anyway. Another comparison of the Chinese naming their foods after Manchurian generals would be like a Native American making some sort of General Custer's... Custard. As for your point, I think that's kinda the point. Just to give the "good guys" more Nazis to fight than they did historically, which kinda reminds me of Kotomine's and Aurum's lines that all heroes secretly desire more villains.

[LegalLoliLover]

Remind me again how many instances are there where the winner of a particular war was punished for "war crimes".

[Imperial]

I'm finally reading the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius. I should have done this years ago.

[SpoonyViking]

I'm finally reading the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius. I should have done this years ago.

Not ancient literature, but after you finish it, I recommend Marguerite Yourcenar's "Memoirs of Hadrian".

[LegalLoliLover]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_...ridge_Incident Honestly, this is ultimately as fruitless as who shot "The Shot Heard Round the World" that started the American Revolution, but theorists, including Chinese ones, believe that it might have been caused by Soviets or Chinese Communists: https://www.aboluowang.com/2014/0710/414630.html

[LegalLoliLover]

In Greek mythology, after finding out that his children would one day overthrow him, Cronus decided to eat his kids. Obviously, this was before birth control was invented. But what, did he just invent extreme cunnilingus with Rhea or something? Like his babies went out one hole and into the other?

[LegalLoliLover]

In DI, Reinhard Heydrich is known as the Lord of Destruction. In Fate, Altera is known as the Maiden of Destruction. In Warriors Orochi, Orochi (well, true Orochi/Orochi X) is known as the God of Destruction, but historically (or, in Orochi's case, his original legend), I would imagine that none of them had those titles. However, in terms of those who actually had that title historically, did Tamerlane https://www.thegreatcoursesplus.com/...of-destruction or is that something that this particular historian added as a title for dramatic effect?

[LegalLoliLover]

Is an action defined as "good" or "evil" when it is done, when it was determined who did it, or when the bards (or whatever the modern equivalent is) spin it? Once upon a time, there was a politically invested individual, upon realizing that his side is losing the war, decided to kill his own children and spouse and then commit suicide to have his family avoid that shame. If I told you that it was Liu Chen at the end of the 3 Kingdoms war, all the songs and poems and movies would say that that was a heroic action. FYI, Liu Chen is the son of Liu Shan. Liu Shan is the son of Liu Bei. Liu Bei is the "orthodox" hero of the 3 Kingdoms. If I told you that it was Joseph Goebbels at the end of WWII, all the songs and poems and movies would say that that was a villainous action. Goebbels was the propaganda minister for the Third Reich.

Some would say that this is a "false equivalency" (god, that phrase is about as popular as "terrorism" was a few years back), and just why is that? Is it because it happened so long ago, or is it that most western theorists don't have any vested interests (only scholarly interests) of their own in the lives and deaths of Asians? If the former, then I think that this video sums up the flaw in that logic:

[RoydGolden]

Generally speaking, I'd say the only situation where something like that could be justified is if the enemy is known for raping or torturing captured prisoners, and you're only killing them yourself to spare them that fate. If it's just for something vague like "avoiding dishonor" it's evil no matter which side does it. I don't know about the situation in ancient China, but America in the second World War didn't generally torture captives as far as I'm aware (in fact, prisoners were sometimes shocked at how well-treated they were), so such an extreme reaction wouldn't have been reasonable in Goebbels' case.

[LegalLoliLover]

During the end of the 3 Kingdoms, specifically, because Liu Shan had declared an official surrender, all the Shu officials who were smart enough to surrender, as well (AKA not Jiang Wei), were all treated quite well, even being invited to dine with those who kicked their butts. In fact, Liu Shan is famous (or perhaps infamous) for saying that he was treated so well that he did not miss his fallen kingdom:

On the other hand, while most of Germany's western front enemies did treat POWs well, the Soviets on the eastern front did not. The bodies of the Goebbels family were found by the Soviets.

[RoydGolden]

During the end of the 3 Kingdoms, specifically, because Liu Shan had declared an official surrender, all the Shu officials who were smart enough to surrender, as well (AKA not Jiang Wei), were all treated quite well, even being invited to dine with those who kicked their butts. In fact, Liu Shan is famous (or perhaps infamous) for saying that he was treated so well that he did not miss his fallen kingdom:

On the other hand, while most of Germany's western front enemies did treat POWs well, the Soviets on the eastern front did not. The bodies of the Goebbels family were found by the Soviets.

I don't have any stake in defending Liu Chen. He probably acted wrongly there.

Goebbels' case is admittedly a bit more complicated than I'd first thought. But if he really wanted to keep his family safe from atrocities (as opposed to just wanting to preserve his twisted sense of pride) there almost certainly would've been better options than killing them all, like surrendering them to America or the other allies on the Western front (who, as you've said, did generally treat prisoners well).

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

Been reading Le Mort, and one part that has left me confused is a passage in the chapter when Merlin is trapped beneath a rock by Nimue.

"...so she and Merlin went over the sea unto the land of Benwick...and there he saw young Launcelot...Take none heaviness, said Merlin, for this same child within this twenty year shall revenge you on King Claudas, that all Christendom shall speak of it; and this same child shall be the most man of worship of the world, and his first name was Galahad, that I know well, said Merlin, and since ye have confirmed him Launcelot. That is the truth, said the queen, his first name was Galahad."

Is this passage saying Lancelot and Galahad are the same person or what?

[Skull]

When he was born and before his abduction by the Lady of the Lake, Lancelot was given the name "Galahad" which he in turn gave to his own son.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

Oh...guess I'll have to read further to see that part. I'm currently on Tristan's book.

Also, thank you.

[LegalLoliLover]

This might be too recent to be considered "ancient" philosophy, but keeping this in mind should be part of any discussion about ethical philosophy:

[Dullahan]

This might be too recent to be considered "ancient" philosophy, but keeping this in mind should be part of any discussion about ethical philosophy:

that's not ethical philosophy. it's at most a theory of ideology. althusser's i'd say