Ancient Literature Discussion (History, Myth, Philosophy &c.)

[LegalLoliLover]

So Jeanne's father was a tax collector?

[falseCeilings]

Probably not the best place to ask but alot of the time I've seen people on here make really interesting references to aspects of what appears to be Buddhist mythology (This quite often ends up being a topic of converstation when talking about Tamamo) and this almost always ends up with me trying to get some books out from the library or whatever on the subject. However whenever I attempt to do so I find myself trying I always seemingly end up being flooded with a trillion books regarding the religons practices and its place in the modern world which I'm not really that interested in. Does anyone have any sort of book recommendations or tricks or whatever as to how to learn about these more mythological topics.

If you are still interested, I could conjure up a list of Sutras that may give you a feel for it. Nasuverse doesn't take a lot from Buddhist cosmology, though.

[Tarlo]

If you are still interested, I could conjure up a list of Sutras that may give you a feel for it. Nasuverse doesn't take a lot from Buddhist cosmology, though.

>Skinny Saver

Nasuverse Buddhism is 90% Shingon stuff I think

[Wallacia]

that's how buddhism in japan work alongside other japan exclusive branches, yes.

[Wallacia]

damn it, quoting is impossible for some reason.

I read the book, skull. it was pretty nice and I agree with the stuff that you mentioned in your pseudo review

note: tackling all buddhist cosmologies while considering all main schools of buddhism is nearly impossible so good luck

[Tarlo]

Just a long trip into a magical syncretic pantheon were indian, chinese, korean, japan, tibetan and greek mythologies are all in One cosmology, yuppie!

[NMR-3]

Just a long trip into a magical syncretic pantheon were indian, chinese, korean, japan, tibetan and greek mythologies are all in One cosmology, yuppie!

Using Greco-Buddhist art of Herc as the dharmapala Vajrapani as a starting point, we can make the following chain:

Heracles = Vajrapani = Acala = based on Shiva according to one scholar and wikipedia. Therefore, we can state that Heracles is basically Shiva.

Now, Shiva = historically based on Indra, according to wikipedia again. So Heracles = Indra. In other words, Heracles is Arjuna's dad, and Aswatthama is actually an avatar of Heracles.

If we take this chain even further, then we see that the daeva of Indian religions correlate to the devas of Zoroastranism, and the Asura to Ahura Mazda. Why? The names sound similar and blah blah PIE religions and shit. The "king" of the devas is, of course, Angra Mainyu.

Using the exact same logic as canon seems to use, we can now state with confidence that Heracles is Angra Mainyu. It's possible to go further than that, of course. We could correlate the Aesir and the Asura, for example, and turn Heracles into Thor. But I can't be bothered.

tl;dr Syncretism is ripe for abuse and I don't like it, especially if it's used to exploit flimsy connections to (a) wank and (b) tie everything back to Buddhism in the end because Nasu seemingly can't help himself.

[Tarlo]

#TheMoreYouKnow, the thing with Angra (lol) and Thor is not really syncretism. Induism came with aryans, and is derived from an original cult settled in Europe, and Persian religion is twin with induism ("The Battle of the Ten Kings" is the scission between indian Aryans and iranian Aryans). Meanwhile the original cult in Europe will become the Aesir religion

About the chain Herakles = Indra is funny because Indra's buddhist name is Sakra, and someone thinks that Sakra is Vajrapani

Obviously, jokes aside, Vajrapani and Indra are two separate things, because the later is stronger identified with Jade Emperor and the first korean king's heavenly grandpa, while Vajrapani and Herk are basically the same, because greeks invented Gautama Buddha's face using Apollo and blah blah

[Dullahan]

The problem which has been identified without identifying it is not syncretism in and of itself, but rather Wikipedia - the Wikipedia model of knowledge, wiki-thought, database thinking, which flattens out the historical archive into an undifferentiated array of data points, stripped of any inherent or historically-determined connections, and free to be mixed and matched arbitrarily. Those who would not identify the fundamental basis of Fate in this (precisely post-modern) worldview should also stay silent about the more egregious excesses of what ""syncretism"" is used to justify in Fate character creation

[Wallacia]

If gautama considered his questions about life and the world being answered as an ''enlightenment'' then wouldn't everyone in the modern era be enlightened as well by that logic?

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because of science/technology and the countless academics we have now

[Dullahan]

No.

[Wallacia]

when do you guys think we will one universal book for buddhism like taoism?

[Dullahan]

Never.

[Tarlo]

If gautama considered his questions about life and the world being answered as an ''enlightenment'' then wouldn't everyone in the modern era be enlightened as well by that logic?

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because of science/technology and the countless academics we have now

He'd reply you with "lol guys, too much thinking"

Things like the Atom and energy transfer were a thing in ancient induism yet, the point is not theoretical notions but living with logic for real ("To be angry is useless, so why do you keep to be angry sometimes?")

[Bugs]

Just the thread I was looking for.

Currently reading the Baital Pachisi (Vetālapañcaviṃśati) and just got to the end where Vikramaditya/Trivrikamasena is rewarded by either Shiva or Vishnu, apparently according to which version you use.
https://archive.org/stream/1001Night.../search/vikram - for reference

In the above version at least, the hero is rewarded with a sword named Invincible by Shiva, and dominion over the Vidyadharas. I've tried everything I could think of, but I can't find a single other reference to "a sword named Invincible" or Shiva even having other swords besides Chandrahas and maybe some unnamed ones.

My theory is that the sword might be Nandaka, since in this version the hero is Trivikramasena--a descendant of the dead Vikramaditya who usually engages with the Vetala--and from what I can tell, Trivikramasena is an allusion to Vamana, which would make sense having an avatar of Vishnu using Vishnu's sword (even though literally earlier in Shiva's monologue he says Vikramaditya was created from an aspect of him, not Vishnu). I guess I'm having some trouble understanding the differences between Hindu/Tamil/Jain versions. Or maybe I'm just researching in the wrong direction. I'll try to put quotes in here later from the text.

Basically, calling on all Indians for help.

[AAM1232]

Feels a lot like a folk tale taking liberties with the myths. Basically not too important unless you want to make Servants in the other thread and use this as a reference.

[LegalLoliLover]

[LegalLoliLover]

Not any specific book, but culture, in general. In the modern west, executions are generally somber affairs, while in China, executioners were practically celebrities. In the west, even the corpse of an evildoer is evil (the Black Flame Candle in Hocus Pocus was made from the corpse of a hanged man), but in China, because executing "bad people" is considered good, the body parts of inmates executed by Death of 1000 (or more, or less) Cuts were often picked up by spectators to be used as medicine (of course, they did the same thing with dinosaur fossils, but I digress).

[SpoonyViking]

Hocus Pocus. I mean, I like the movie, but maybe Disney isn't exactly the best example when talking about historical stuff? That said, this one actually does have a basis in real-life witchcraft practices (although it may have been more legend than actual practice? Sorry, continental witchcraft isn't really my field), much like the Hand of Glory. But the same periods during which body parts of criminals were used for witchcraft also treated executions like public festivals, very far from somber affairs.

[LegalLoliLover]

Witchcraft, as in evil arts, not healing medicine, like in China, though, right? Still, even in those festivals, no one asked for the executioner's autograph in like China, did they? Western executioners generally wore hoods, like Chinese ones did not.

Also, I am aware that Disney isn't exactly historically accurate, as per Hercules and Mulan, but it's the first example I thought of. In that same vein, and I say this growing up in a Chinese household, Chinese people are really obsessed with math. Even for a "barbaric" execution, algebra is needed. Death by 1000 Cuts is better described as Death by x Cuts. x depends on the severity of the crime. If the condemned dies before reaching x, the executioner himself is put to death based on the number of cuts still left, the difference... I'm sure that someone can write a formula for that.