Tabletop Games Thread

[Five_X]

Moral Dilemmaaaaaas

[Saiga]

Oh yeah on the thugs they sent the Nothic after: they had already fought these thugs and lost. They infiltrated the hideout, joined them in a game of dice to get information and stabbed one of them in the hand when they found out he was cheating. They killed him in the ensuing fight, got knocked out and interrogated by the survivors who then found the guy was cheating and decided to take half the group's money and let them go.

If that changes the situation at all.

[Seika]

Demons are inherently evil. Undead are inherently evil. Goblins and orcs are just other humanoids that are wild.

Strictly speaking, orcs have a genuine inherent inclination to evil, thanks to Gruumsh creating them. They are fully free-willed, so they can chose to control their instincts and suppress their bloodlust, but they innately have an urge to just start maiming things.

Contrast demons, which are spawned from the essence of evil and actually lack the capacity for compassion and heroism despite being fully sapient, or gnolls which are totally controlled by their creator-god's hunger for the flesh of thinking beings.

[Saiga]

Huh, I figured Half-Orcs were playable because full Orcs couldn't control their instincts.

Oh well, I think having the races not be inherently evil allows for more RPing options for my players.

edit: I know Demons/Devils are always evil, but the 5E Warlock class mentions that patrons can be lovers of the Warlock which seemed really odd. Are they able to genuinely care about mortals?

[GhostDIGIT]

They probably just like fucking with mortals both figuratively and literally.

[Seika]

edit: I know Demons/Devils are always evil, but the 5E Warlock class mentions that patrons can be lovers of the Warlock which seemed really odd. Are they able to genuinely care about mortals?

If by 'care' you mean 'care about tempting their soul into evil and claiming it on their death', sure.

The part where the PHB says your relationship might be romantic is, I think, meant mostly to allow for the classic courtly (and probably unwise) romance with a mysterious fey noble. When it comes to fiends, the bit where it mentions being 'seduced into summoning a devil' is more likely to apply.

[Bird of Hermes]

Huh, I figured Half-Orcs were playable because full Orcs couldn't control their instincts.

Oh well, I think having the races not be inherently evil allows for more RPing options for my players.

edit: I know Demons/Devils are always evil, but the 5E Warlock class mentions that patrons can be lovers of the Warlock which seemed really odd. Are they able to genuinely care about mortals?

I thought Half-Orcs still had a connection to Gruumsh, but dulled in comparison to full blooded orcs so they still have a tendency to enjoy smashing things - they just have better control.

As for the Warlock... It's tricky, they lack the compassion so if they were lovers then the relationship probably isn't the best, but really the books and everything are just guidelines and you can always tweak a few things in your campaign.

- - - Updated - - -

Also Seika's statement is probably more accurate.

[Seika]

I thought Half-Orcs still had a connection to Gruumsh, but dulled in comparison to full blooded orcs so they still have a tendency to enjoy smashing things - they just have better control.

Pretty much. Honestly, the PHB Half-Orc section has better stuff on the Mark of Gruumsh than Volo's Orc section.

I liked the 2e guidance on playing Orcs and Half-Orcs, partly because it made a proper attempt to keep them distinct instead of 'Big Angry Smashy' and "More Big Angry Smashy", partly because it treated the idea of them being adventurers with some actual respect instead of the eyebrow-raised scepticism common to most of the humanoids' prospects, and partly because it was just like "Yeah, orcish society treats their women like crap, so they obviously keep running off to become heroic adventurers. Duh."

[Saiga]

No official support for tsundere ice devils then, this is bullshit

I did remember half-orcs still being tempted by Gruumsh and struggling to control their more savage side. It was that fluff that made me think regular Orcs couldn't control it, because otherwise the distinction doesn't seem that big.

Although Volo Orcs' racial features also don't feel very similar to Half-Orcs. It's weird.

edit: wait a minute don't warlock patrons already get the soul? it doesn't seem like they need to tempt people further or even pretend to care.

Even setting aside romantic interests, it kind of bums me that demons/devils can't even care for their Warlock following lore. Maybe giving them human-like emotions is missing the point of them, but I like the idea of different patrons seeing their Warlocks in a variety of ways.

[Seika]

Warlock pacts are, on the basic level, the promise to exchange services for power. Your warlock might have given up their soul as part of sealing the initial bargain, or might give it over later, but it's not a necessary condition at any point.

[Saiga]

Now that I think about it, the PHB was kind of vague about how dealing with your patron works. Probably because that's meant to be a DM thing, but I wasn't sure how easy contact is between a warlock and their patron, if they can summon them or telepathically communicate, etc

[Bird of Hermes]

Now that I think about it, the PHB was kind of vague about how dealing with your patron works. Probably because that's meant to be a DM thing, but I wasn't sure how easy contact is between a warlock and their patron, if they can summon them or telepathically communicate, etc

I think it may be intentionally ambiguous so people can fill in the void themselves, though I have seen telepathic communication either one sided from the patron or in dreams a lot more than direct summoning.

[Saiga]

I imagine summoning would be left out to avoid players trying to bind their patrons, bring them in to solve problems or other such cheese.

Which is easily avoided by the patron going "lol fuck you, I'm in charge here" but that's probably not what Wizards want happening.

I did homebrew a ritual spell for Warlocks to use to summon essentially a hologram of their patron. The patron could refuse the summon, end it at any time, and was not physically present so unaffected by any other spells. Just to make it clear the spell was entirely in the patron's control, and nothing more than a way for the Warlock to request an audience with them.

edit: Aww, also, the dynamic I wanted to have for my (eventual) Warlock was for the patron to find my character bizarre and rather exasperating but puts up with them for sheer competence is probably too humane for a devil

[Seika]

Spawned in the Infinite Layers of the Abyss, demons are the embodiment of chaos and evil - engines of destruction barely contained in monstrous form. Possessing no compassion, empathy, or mercy, they exist only to destroy.

Yeah, on the one hand, it's sad that there's no room for Fall-From-Grace and the chaste succubi in this kind of cosmology. On the other, the purity of "No, seriously, this thing is evil in its very essence" is a compelling one too, told well.

Speaking of 2e fiends, Faces of Evil really was one of the best books TSR put out.

There is literally one mechanical thing in it: a brief summoning spell description. Everything else is pure lore.





'Course, it seems like some creatures of goodness won't ever learn to trust a changed baatezu fully. "Can't take the fire out of the fiend," they say. Fact is, some folk think the baatezu're at least partly evil by nature. Just as a yeth hound remains a carnivore, so must a baatezu remain a monster of evil. But then they look at some of the reformed baatezu and they've got to wonder at their own lack of faith in the power of good.










Tanar'ri vulnverabilities:
Hello, mortals! It is time now to learn how to kill the tanar'ri. Xanxost knows of only three attacks that are fully effective: the magic missile spell and weapons forged of cold-forged iron. Two attacks.
...
Why do not all planeswalkers carry such weapons at all times? No one knows. Wait, Xanxost knows. There are two reasons. First, many planars think that cold-wrought weapons are primitive. Second, the weapons do not work so well against enemies with no special weakness for them - a good steel blade does better. Third, the tanar'ri tell everyone about the first two reasons, to try to get people to stop using cold-wrought iron.

Other types of assaults hurt the tanar'ri as well:
...
Holy water and holy weapons work nicely - steal these things from the mortals known as paladins. They work even better if they are enchanted or made of cold-wrought iron - except for the holy water, which must usually be made of water.
...
Electricity, poison, and nonmagical fire do not hurt the tanar'ri at all. Not even poison that has been set on fire. Xanxost has tried.
...
Remember, though: No two tanari'ri are exactly the same. A fool who expects the same thing to work on all of them is a fool. Sometimes, what kills one fiend might not even wound another of the same type. But do not worry! Some tanar'ri take a liking to a mortal who tries to kill them and fails. They find it humorous that an insignificant worm imagines he has power over a fiend. They laugh even as they turn him inside out.
If you will be fighting tanar'ri, here is Xanxost's best advice: run away instead, or bring along slaadi to help. If you must still fight, make sure you have a small arsenal, and remember the four main vulnerabilities of the tanar'ri: Magic missiles and cold-wrought iron. Two main vulnerabilities. All else is chancy.

[black1blade]

That books seems pretty awesome. If I ever want to run a high level campaign into hell or the abyss then I'll definitely hunt out a copy. Has there ever been a module detailing the fortresses of the arch demons and devils on their respective levels of the abyss/hell?

[mAc Chaos]

I imagine summoning would be left out to avoid players trying to bind their patrons, bring them in to solve problems or other such cheese.

Which is easily avoided by the patron going "lol fuck you, I'm in charge here" but that's probably not what Wizards want happening.

I did homebrew a ritual spell for Warlocks to use to summon essentially a hologram of their patron. The patron could refuse the summon, end it at any time, and was not physically present so unaffected by any other spells. Just to make it clear the spell was entirely in the patron's control, and nothing more than a way for the Warlock to request an audience with them.

edit: Aww, also, the dynamic I wanted to have for my (eventual) Warlock was for the patron to find my character bizarre and rather exasperating but puts up with them for sheer competence is probably too humane for a devil

You could still pull that off. They definitely have emotions, and have long term goals that they put up with short term difficulties for. They'd still totally only be in it for the soul though.

And if you actually manage to summon them, it wouldn't be cheese. I mean, summoning and binding anything like a demon is something no single caster can do alone in 5e, you'd need at least two level 17 casters working together. It'd be a lot of work. But outgrowing and overthrowing your patron before they come calling for your debts is classic Warlock.

[Five_X]

Those are some really, really cool excerpts, Seika.

[Seika]

That books seems pretty awesome. If I ever want to run a high level campaign into hell or the abyss then I'll definitely hunt out a copy. Has there ever been a module detailing the fortresses of the arch demons and devils on their respective levels of the abyss/hell?

'Popular' parts of the 2e Planescape suffered hugely from being included in too many books (especially with latter-day 2e's haste to release supplements), and the Abyss and the Hells are the most popular planes of them all. They also suffer from being changed up at writers' apparent whims, both between editions and even during them (the rulership of many of the Nine Hells in particular fluctuates wildly).

Stuff like the Planescape Campaign Setting, the Planeswalker's Handbook, and the Manual of the Planes mostly just do quick overviews (though the campaign setting has a couple of decent maps if you can get your hands on a paper copy which hasn't already been looted of them).

Faces of Evil, as said, has basically no crunch but did do plenty of fluff detailing for the Lower Planes, with a couple of maps for interesting locations.
The boxsets Planes of Chaos, Planes of Law, and Hellbound: the Blood War all tend to pick out a couple of examples and also have adventure seeds provided. Hellbound's not my favourite box set, to put it lightly, but it's probably the most useful of the three in this case.
A Guide To Hell is a flatout bad supplement, especially lorewise, but mechanically probably has the most usable stuff out of anything I'm listing here in terms of Lower Plane geography and topology. Condition notes, maps, and descriptions of Baator fill up a fair chunk of the book.
A Paladin in Hell is also a bad adventure (though I note that one of its primary characters actually appears in VGtM). It does a couple of parts of the Hells, but is mostly concentrating on its own plot.
Tales of the Outer Planes has one adventure that briefly puts you through some Abyssal layers. It's pretty perfunctory.
A better adventure is the Fires of Dis, which gives a decently thorough grounding the Hell of Dis, unsurprisingly.

You could still pull that off. They definitely have emotions, and have long term goals that they put up with short term difficulties for. They'd still totally only be in it for the soul though.

And if you actually manage to summon them, it wouldn't be cheese. I mean, summoning and binding anything like a demon is something no single caster can do alone in 5e, you'd need at least two level 17 casters working together. It'd be a lot of work. But outgrowing and overthrowing your patron before they come calling for your debts is classic Warlock.

Cast Planar Binding into a sixth-level Glyph of Warding. Inverted Magic Circle around the Glyph (in case your binding fails), summon patron with Gate, Glyph immediately goes off under them.

[black1blade]

Yeah thanks for the response and I would be more looking for something functional tbh. An adventure in the city of brass would be really fucking cool (that's the place on the back of the DMG right?). The brief snippets of lore in the 1e monster manual were enough to make me pretty interested but I tend to run homebrew worlds (as in pretty blank canvas and undeveloped).
Also Mac, saw the wotc game dev tweets you retweeted and interesting question "stuff for PCs to spend gold on" which I feel has been subject to 2 extremes over the years. In 1st edition AD&D, training costs probably siphon away most of the party money. In 3.5 and pathfinder, it's the magical items you use to "build" your character.

[black1blade]

Just wondering how other people think of things for party to spend their money on. Personally I use a randomly generated magic auction where magical items go for incredibly high prices for higher level characters. There are also a lot of other expenses the party saves for like money to build a stronghold. Also for arcane magic users, money is constantly in very high demand as in my campaigns, magic-users have to pay 500gp per spell level for every spell in their book.