Tabletop Games Thread

[Draconic]

That's true, I was thinking that as I was typing it, but... I don't know if I could ever make my players really care about languages beyond 'oh cool, I know how to read that! that's useful!'

I'd still have it be a 'ask the DM' thing, as in, ask me and tell me why you want this language. My Wizard friend's first character was someone who researched demons after his family was killed by a Vrock, so Abyssal definitely makes sense for him.

On my game, I wasn't sure whether to go with a fairly episodic adventure campaign (ie players make characters with a long term goal and have adventurers on the way to their destinations) or something like a homebrewed LMOP with a single hook that makes a low level campaign.

Episodic sounds exciting. There's more room for drama if you can find various ways to link things together. If you add subtle common factors between the campaigns, you can create overarching subplots that could lead towards dramatic revelations. For instance, I once watched a series of campaigns where the GM added a pair of researchers who would leave notes that would help the characters along on their quests. These wouldn't appear in every game, mind you, just a few of the ones that involved ancient ruins, so after a while, the characters began asking around among NPCs if they'd ever heard of these guys, wondering who they were. This continued on for a while, and over time, the tone of the notes began to change. As one might expect, they began to sound suspicious, and eventually sinister, up to the point at which the next campaign got put on hold in order to track these guys down once and for all.

When they finally catch up, it turns out that they've come to a place at the central point between all the locations they found the notes at, and they arrive just in time to get monologued by one of the researchers, actually cultists of a certain aspect of Obad-Hai. They're told that by killing the enemies that had been infesting the ruins they'd already gone to, they'd unwittingly created these sort of Fullmetal Alchemist style crests of blood (The DM called them geist seals) in each of those locations, and had made it possible for them to summon an aspect of Obad-Hai that had been spiritually merged with the demons that were being worshiped in the ruins they'd looted. It was very exciting. I just wish that I'd been able to actually play it.

[Zurvan]

Pretty vague question maybe, but oh well

What's everyone's opinion on the Sorcerer class, and what are its greatest pro's and cons?

[mAc Chaos]

If you're asking about power level, it's fine. Unless your DM is running a killing field, the power levels are all about even and you're free to play what you want flavor wise.

As for what it's good and bad at specifically, it's commonly seen as having good damage and power, but with a limited set of spells. So basically you'd play it if you want to have a character that's explosive with a particular kind of magic, and has some variations on it with their sorcery points. They'd have a magical niche, like a theme that their magic centers around. A guy who's all about fire magic, etc.

And everyone loves the Wild Magic Sorcerer. Oh, and the emphasis on Con makes them beefier spellcasters.

In contrast, the Wizard is the jack-of-all-trades of magic users, and the Warlock is the Determinator, constantly restocking its power on Short Rests... though that depends on the game.

[Zurvan]

I'm also interested in hearing about its subclasses, especially Draconic, Favored Soul and Storm.

I hear a number of people saying that choosing a Wizard or Cleric is often the better pick, since they're more versatile/tankier and dont suffer from the limited spells.
Not sure why but I got the impression that Sorcerers are seen as lesser Wizards, which seems odd considering flavorwise and with with metamagic the comparison seems odd.

Although personally I find Sorcerer to be the most interesting flavor wise, there's just something about brimming with magic without being reliant on something or someone. Though that might be just me.

[mAc Chaos]

Just play what you think is cooler. It's like comparing an A with an A-. It's not worth playing something totally different just for the slight reassurance that people on the internet say they're a bit more optimal at combat.

[Trubo]

Pretty vague question maybe, but oh well

What's everyone's opinion on the Sorcerer class, and what are its greatest pro's and cons?

Limited focus on spells versus a Wizard, though not as restrictive as Warlock. Not having to worry about preparing spells is useful. Metamagic can let a Sorcerer function like multiple Wizards with different School of Magic focus.

It's also one of the few classes where picking an archetype is difficult, as they're all generally good choices.

[Arashi_Leonhart]

Sorcerers are spellcasting machine gunners

Wizards are spellcasting snipers

Warlocks are spellcasting light infantry that can call in air strikes

[Mattias]

Sorcerers are Wizards who don't immediately become useless after their last spell is used.

Or at least that was how it was back in 3e.

[Trubo]

Can't remember 3e and 3.5e that well, but 5e Wizards have the ability to regain spell slots once a day during a short or long rest, total slots = ceiling(wizard level /2). Also, cantrips scale with character level, making them okay filler spells if you don't need much else. Then there's Bladesinging if you want to show up Eldritch Knight Fighters.

[Saiga]

I would say the difference between Wizard and Sorcerer is more an A vs A-. There are numerous things that set them apart, and the circumstances of a campaign can make it very noticeable where your shortcomings are while playing to the strengths of other classes.

To keep this comparison to full casters (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer and Wizard) every class but Sorcerer has a resource tied to short rest recovery - Inspiration, Channel Divinity, Wildshape/subclass features and Arcane Recovery. This gives each class more longevity on long adventuring days, and for Land Druids and Wizards this means they get more spell slots over the adventuring day than any other class. Even if there is only one short rest per adventuring day, Druids/Wizards get the full benefit of their spell slot recovery.

All the non-Sorcerer full classes also get Ritual Casting, which enables them to use certain spells in out of combat without expending a spell slot. This is very helpful in the interaction pillar of the game, reducing the resources they spend outside of combat while still letting them do fun/problem solving things.

Clerics, Druids and Bards all get better armour options than Sorcerers and Wizards. Mostly Clerics, that's a pretty big AC bonus for them but not as much for the other two.

On the at-will/cantrip front, well, it's pretty much the same story across the board. Sorcerers only have one subclass that can boost cantrip damage, the same as Wizards. Clerics either get a cantrip damage boost or a melee damage boost, depending on their domain, both functioning as the 'at will' damage boost. All full casters but Sorcerer have a melee-boosting subclass that can provide better at-will damage or really nice short-rest melee capability (Moon Druids, Bladesong). So Sorcerers, even Dragon Sorcerers, aren't especially notable in terms of cantrip damage - but they DO learn more cantrips than the other casters, so you can either get a variety of damage types/secondary effects or pick some extra utility cantrips to make up for the fact that you can't do much in the interaction pillar without burning resources.

Sorcerers also have a smaller number of levelled spells known, and a very restrictive spell list to pick off. Now, I know they don't need to prepare spells, but that's not actually a benefit to them because the amount of spells they know is noticeably less than what a full caster can prepare. It's definitely simpler, but you can prepare spells pretty simply as a Wizard by simply never changing them day-to-day and you'd still be more flexible than a Sorc.

Now, on what Sorcs DO have going for them - Metamagic and sorcery points. The only features unique to them, metamagic allows more flexibility on the small number of spells you do have, and some of the effects are quite powerful. Metamagic has its own drawbacks - Sorcerors don't learn many (2 at level 3, an extra one at 10th and 17th levels) and their sorcery points recharge on a long rest, so they can burn through resources incredibly quickly. Not to mention, most Metamagics will only work with certain spells, so you have to pick both spells and metamagics pretty carefully when you only get a small number of each. Twinned Spell makes Sorcerers one of the most efficient buff/support characters in the game, which can be a decent niche to build towards.

Sorcery points can be used to create spell slots and vice versa, which adds to their flexibility. This does allow Sorcerers to gain additional spell slots, but at the cost of their metamagic fuel, and it still can't beat out Arcane Recovery or Natural Recovery.

Sorcerers get less options during character creation/level up and don't get to re-do their spells through preparation, but once the day has started their sorcery points and metamagic afford them more flexibility throughout the day. However, the fact that they need to use resources to do basically anything means they will run out of resources quickly.

On days where the group probably won't take a short rest or only have one or two fights before their next long rest, the Sorcerer and Paladin can go nuts. My group's first homebrew campaign had an issue with having big fights punctuated by long rests in-between, so the Sorcerer never needed to conserve resources and dominated every fight. The Wizard player even felt the Sorcerer was overpowered, and he was the next best character since he could also spam Fireballs each encounter. The rest of the characters basically had no reason to turn up with how much of a disparity there was in combat performance.

Sorcerers are basically Megumin.

The other thing to Sorcerers is that they can really benefit from multiclass. As Charisma mains, they have good synergy with both Warlocks and Paladins. Both classes can help shore up some of the Sorcerer's weaknesses, and take advantage of the Sorcerers' strengths.

Firstly, 2 levels of Warlock gives you the best cantrip damage in the game: Agonizing Blast. Two level 1 spell slots that recharge on a short rest also help with that long rest dependency. With reliable, sustained damage, the Sorcerer can use their other spell/metamagic choices for more utility, control and buffing effects which can be especially potent with their metamagic. Also, due to the rules on bonus action spell casting, Eldritch Blast is one of the best spells to combine with the Quicken Spell metamagic for damage. A single level of Hexblade Warlock can give you a very dedicated melee-hybrid who relies on the Booming Blade/Green-Flame Blade cantrips (which are the other best spells for Quicken Spell) and only needs Charisma as their main stat. Also, Booming Blade is a great target for Twinned Spell. Warlock 3 can give you ritual casting, which the Sorcerer otherwise lacked, and even MORE cantrips.

Paladin, meanwhile, is a good way to add tankiness to a Sorcerer. Paladin 2 can give you heavy armour, martial weapons and SMITE, which works great with full casting spell slots. Smite more, smite harder. Taking more Paladin levels can give Extra Attack (great at-will damage) and auras, but even at Paladin 2, you can be a great melee character using the melee cantrips supported by powerful smites and Quicken Spell/Twinned Spell.

In terms of Sorcerous Origins, Dragon is good for damage if you are okay with specializing in a certain type, and it's got some decent defensive options as well. DivineSoul gives you access to the Cleric spell list and a bonus spell, so that's neat, but the lack of spells known will make choosing spells really difficult. The favoured by the gods ability is really good tho. I miss the melee orientated version, I wish they had balanced that more instead of cutting the melee stuff entirely. Storm is pretty similar to Dragon - you don't get to pick your damage specialty, but you get both Lighting/Thunder, and you also get some cool defensive abilities. The high level abilities of Storm are awesome, but they come so late.

[mAc Chaos]

My friend played a Wild Magic sorcerer. Naturally, I had him roll or activate the Wild Magic every single chance I could. It made him actually pretty powerful with the Tides of Chaos ability.

But it didn't stop him from getting turned into a houseplant.

[SpoonyViking]

I would say the difference between Wizard and Sorcerer is more an A vs A-. There are numerous things that set them apart, and the circumstances of a campaign can make it very noticeable where your shortcomings are while playing to the strengths of other classes.

That reminds me of a 3.5 campaign I GM'ed. The PCs were an Elan Psion, a human Monk with Vow of Poverty, a drow Cleric / Bard / Sword Dancer, and a human Paladin / Lasher / Hunter of the Dead (the player basically wanted to play a Belmont), and I gave them an extremely generous point-buy distribution, let them use maximum HDs for their HPs and take Flaws, barely had any magic items in the campaign (and I adjusted the monsters downward accordingly), usually had only one combat per session (and I adapted "7th Sea" 's Brutes / Henchmen / Villains rule for D&D: mooks had minimum HP, "lieutenants" had average HP, and main villains had maximum HP), and nearly all of their enemies were Evil. As a result, while none of the characters were ever really useless, there was a noticeable disparity between the Psion and the Monk and the other two, except under certain circumstances. We all had a lot of fun with the campaign, but damn if it didn't give me an appreciation of the tier system.

[Trubo]

Clerics, Druids and Bards all get better armour options than Sorcerers and Wizards. Mostly Clerics, that's a pretty big AC bonus for them but not as much for the other two.

In terms of armor, I'd say that only Clerics really have an edge over the others, before factoring in subclasses/archetypes. Being able to use a shield without having to take a level in another class is pretty big, as the only time you'd ever want to melee is GFB/BB. Beyond that, there's not much difference between Wizard/Sorcerer and Druid/Bard thanks to Mage Armor (until people are walking around with +1 studded leather), though, as you have pointed out, the Sorcerer's limited number of known spells can make it hard to justify taking Mage Armor. This can be bypassed by going Draconic for subclass/archetype or picking Lizardman as your race, but the former locks you into a specific subclass for Sorcerer (albeit, not a bad one), and the later requires picking a race that has no real synergy with Sorcerer.

Of course, if we go Unearthed Arcana, Stone Sorcerers are a nice option. Can gain an Unarmored Defense option, but instead of 13+Dex it's 13+Con. Plus, gain proficiency in Shields and Martial Weapons.

On the at-will/cantrip front, well, it's pretty much the same story across the board. Sorcerers only have one subclass that can boost cantrip damage, the same as Wizards.

What Sorcerer class boosts cantrip damage specifically? Only thing I can find is that Draconic and Phoenix can boost damage from related spells (damage spells that match Draconic Origin and Fire, respectively).

Even there, I'd say Wizards have it better because their option also lets cantrips that rely on saving rolls to still deal half damage if the target succeeds.

Clerics either get a cantrip damage boost or a melee damage boost, depending on their domain, both functioning as the 'at will' damage boost. All full casters but Sorcerer have a melee-boosting subclass that can provide better at-will damage or really nice short-rest melee capability (Moon Druids, Bladesong). So Sorcerers, even Dragon Sorcerers, aren't especially notable in terms of cantrip damage - but they DO learn more cantrips than the other casters, so you can either get a variety of damage types/secondary effects or pick some extra utility cantrips to make up for the fact that you can't do much in the interaction pillar without burning resources.

The one sad thing about Sorcerers is that, based on Xanathar's, they miss out on Toll the Dead, one of the best damage cantrips outside of the Warlock's Agonizing Blast. Necrotic rather than Fire (so about half as many monsters have resistance or better), and deals either Xd8 or Xd12, depending on whether the target is at full health or not.

Now, on what Sorcs DO have going for them - Metamagic and sorcery points. The only features unique to them, metamagic allows more flexibility on the small number of spells you do have, and some of the effects are quite powerful. Metamagic has its own drawbacks - Sorcerors don't learn many (2 at level 3, an extra one at 10th and 17th levels) and their sorcery points recharge on a long rest, so they can burn through resources incredibly quickly. Not to mention, most Metamagics will only work with certain spells, so you have to pick both spells and metamagics pretty carefully when you only get a small number of each. Twinned Spell makes Sorcerers one of the most efficient buff/support characters in the game, which can be a decent niche to build towards.

Sorcery points can be used to create spell slots and vice versa, which adds to their flexibility. This does allow Sorcerers to gain additional spell slots, but at the cost of their metamagic fuel, and it still can't beat out Arcane Recovery or Natural Recovery.

And to add insult to injury, Sorcerers can't auto regain Sorcery Points until level 20 and after a short rest, as opposed to other classes that can regain their resource at lower levels and/or just from entering combat.

Sorcerers are basically Megumin.

Which is kind of funny, since Megumin should have gone Evocation Wizard if she wants to cast multiple Explosions per day.

The other thing to Sorcerers is that they can really benefit from multiclass. As Charisma mains, they have good synergy with both Warlocks and Paladins. Both classes can help shore up some of the Sorcerer's weaknesses, and take advantage of the Sorcerers' strengths.

The downside to multiclassing though is that you delay your ASI/feat by a level.

[Seika]

All right.

This took like a month longer than I was hoping, and two weeks longer than I was going to settle for, but, hey, job loss.


I have a campaign which I'm ready to run. It's based on an old published adventure I've worked on converting, well-regarded in its time and pretty fun. Ich bin Looking For Group.

Fundamentals

Table: roll20. (Theatre of the Mind. Where we're going, there are no grids).

Ruleset: 5e D&D (as ever, subject to Rule Zero).

Setting: The adventure isn't specific to any published setting; I've chosen not to implant it in one and run with the details from the module for Reasons. So no-one's expected to know anything about it beforehand, and there's no research to do. There's plenty of background if people want prompting during character creation, but also enough blank space to accommodate a lot of invention if that's your thing. (One thing that is lacking from the presented world is a developed pantheon, so I've imported the FR one).

Books: Any and all. UAs subject to approval, but should generally be fine – I just want the chance to catch bits that were broken alpha tests. (Not necessarily broken, but just insufficient developed, are the Mystic and Artificer). Where UA stuff has made it into books, those trump the UAs obviously. In general, it's the usual tabletop rule: play to have fun and play to let other people have fun. Don't try to hog the spotlight just because you spotted a silly interaction that slipped past proof-readers.

Projected Campaign Length: Could vary considerably depending on how quickly players work out and face mysteries and plot points, and on general play speed. There are also some natural break-points at the ends of acts, so to speak, where I'd want to take time to do some more prep and where we could call it storywise if people feel done. A party which went really fast at this could probably finish up the first act in three or four three-hour sessions. A party which went for some of the diversions from the main track and wanted to go all the way through the adventure might stretch to many more.


Players
I'm looking to begin this with between 20 and 25 levels of PCs. In practice, that means a party of three level sevens, four level sixes, or five level fives, because a party of two just doesn't have the action economy, and a party of six doesn't have the individual power (or my confidence in being able to handle them all).
Please feel free to join in whatever your experience of D&D or tabletop RP in general. I'm assuredly rusty as a DM, so new players are very very welcome to join me on my adventure.


Style

Pillars
Combat: 3.5/5. As is the usual way with pre-gens, there's a fairly heavy amount of fighting, though it's far from just sticking you in a dungeon.
Exploration: 3.5/5. Generally this is deep rather than broad: challenging environments instead of a large-area hexcrawl. I might try to get you lost occasionally though.
Social: 2/5. The PCs can make their lives a lot easier if they take the initiative on this pillar at particular points and manage their investigations well. That said, there are definitely times when this will drop into the background.
(Narrative: 2.5/5. Takes some time to pick up, but when it gets there it's pretty sweet, at least IMO).

Story
This is heroic fantasy with some gritty downs and some mythical ups, tending toward the latter, especially as the plot progresses. For now, I'm trying to keep details under lock, because I'd rather not tempt anyone into looking up what's going to happen before they even roll their character. (I very much understand the temptation – I'm horrible as a player for not keeping my nose out of the books – but there are a couple of cool later plot twists I really want to keep you unspoiled for).

Gameplay
Despite having converted this to 5e (being on the whole a more sane and friendly edition which people will actually deign to play with me) I've endeavoured to keep a degree of the old 2e spirit intact in its encounters and in my running of it. Partly this is to be faithful to the intent, and partly to show off that style – not to say that it's superior, but that it is different. That means some things will be quicker, and some will be slower. Many things are liable to be weirder. I promise to try and make it so you can laugh and enjoy it all anyway.


Important Note
For honesty's sake, I like 5e a lot but can't pretend to have played hundreds of hours of it; this is a pre-gen adventure which I've amateurishly converted and prepped for (albeit over a painstaking period of time); and I haven't DM'd in years. Stuff might go wrong or end up being bodged together on the go. Please be prepared to forgive some issues.


And? What now?
For a start, say hi, say when you can make it.

My preference is basically to have a quick session zero, where I introduce and let you choose between the adventure hooks, and then let people do some sheet work on that basis, whether starting from scratch or filling out something you've already begun writing beforehand. It allows people to work up characters together, which both helps with the RP side – especially since you're a higher-level group who may have already been working with one another – and with not accidentally producing an entire party of -5 to hit, 10 hp, +20 Religion sages or 2 CHA 2 INT barbarians. It also lets me be there to answer setting and rules questions as they come up, and to give you any other guidance you might want. (Like, for example, that +20 Religion will actually be extremely useful at points, but that this adventure is not designed for a party which doesn't do anything other than that). Then we'd break off, let people finish up sheets and submit them for final checking, and begin the campaign proper when everyone's ready to go.

(For the people thinking about their character design before session zero: yes, there's fighting in this adventure. No, no, no that doesn't mean you have to optimise or you're DRAGGING THE PARTY DOWN and RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYONE DYING. In the first place, I'm not good enough at 5e to optimise the encounters against you. In the second place, D&D as a wargame instead of a roleplaying game makes me sad. In the third place, my usual internet – and D&D grognard – persona aside, I'm not here to make you miserable. Challenging your characters can be fun and keep the story full of tension; killing you off in a randomly rolled encounter because you're not measuring up to some arbitrary power standard of mine is just psychotic. Play characters you think are fun, you think you'll enjoy RPing as, you think will make for a cool group dynamic, play the characters you want to play. Don't play a char-op guide).

If for some bizarre reason an outsized number of people want to join, and they all express interest before I realise this and lock the players down, then I'll run a quick cull based primarily on timezone and scheduling availability, and secondarily on some preliminary character concepts if it comes down to that. No other work or social circumstances intervening, I will typically be able to show any days bar Sunday, between 8pm and midnight GMT/UTC. (For reference, this is currently an hour behind CET, five ahead of Eastern and eight ahead of Pacific). That can be stretched a bit (mostly to the earlier end, and less so Friday and Saturday), but if you're totally incompatible with those times, it's probably not worth your while trying.

[SpoonyViking]

Oh, oh! Pick me, pick me! I'm available Tuesdays (all day), Wednesdays (afternoon and evening), and Friday evenings.

[aldeayeah]

Pretty vague question maybe, but oh well

What's everyone's opinion on the Sorcerer class, and what are its greatest pro's and cons?

One small, but very annoying Sorc con: they can't learn Identify.

[Saiga]

Ah, that's a really good write up Seika. Totally going to yoink that format when I do my own today.

I won't be able to play since with those times I could only do Saturday (6 - 10 am in my timezone) but if you do schedule any games on a Saturday I may spectate.

edit: Wait, how does TOTM work with roll20? I thought that was all about preparing maps and shit

[Daneel Rush]

I'd love to be part of this. Based on your schedule, I'd say I'm technically available every afternoon except on Saturdays (my own DMing time), but I'd personally prefer Fridays.

[Seika]

edit: Wait, how does TOTM work with roll20? I thought that was all about preparing maps and shit

Basically for the die roller and as a place I can show art consistently without it getting lost in the chat log. Plus it makes things a bit easier than, e.g. Discord with a dice bot, if I wanna flip between names and avatars quickly to show that I'm talking as different characters.

[Trubo]

All right.

This took like a month longer than I was hoping, and two weeks longer than I was going to settle for, but, hey, job loss.

Sorry to hear about the job loss.

Just make sure, the posted time would be noon to 4 PM PST, correct? If so, I would certainly be interested in joining if there's room.