View Poll Results: What's your Favorite System?

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  • 1e

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  • 2e

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  • 3.5e

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  • d20 (custom rules, etc)

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  • PF

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  • 4e

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    20 32.26%
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Thread: Tabletop Games Thread

  1. #3921
    I judge your avatar and and I can not lie Deathhappens's Avatar
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    Κender as an idea aren't TOO terrible (though outside of Dragonlance they overlap with the halfling creative space too much): A race of fey half-children, perpetually in search of adventure for the sake of it rather than the material rewards. As written however, they are a walking, talking plot derailment device that is compelled to get the party in trouble in every possible way.

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  2. #3922
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six SpoonyViking's Avatar
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    Yeah, there's an intrinsic problem with them when the narrative doesn't acknowledge how innocence that oversteps boundaries is inherently troublesome, as pointed out by those annotations. Or, to quote J. M. Barrie, "children are gay and innocent and heartless".

    I do like Fifth Age's afflicted kender, though, and I believe 3E's depiction of halflings took great inspiration from them.
    My fanfics:
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    He Was a Good King (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot) - A short exploration of Beowulf's character as a hero and a king.
    A Fairy Tale of Love and Death (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot) - A meeting between Scáthach and King Hassan in the distant past.

  3. #3923
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six
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    Originally kender were apparently supposed to show more the dark side of childish innocence you could say. More like little nasty assholes apparently.
    And then one of the developers made them super cutesy. Or so I've heard.

    Honestly, I have mixed feelings even on Tasslehoff himself.

    He is brave and fearless and etc but a lot of times, he feels like Pippin from the LOTR, if Pippin never wised up on touching stuff or rash actions.
    Also, Tasslehoff strikes me as self-centered in a way that irritating. For example, in the 2nd trilogy of Dragonlance by Weiss & Hickman, one of the characters from the first trilogy, Cameron, has to go back in time to pursue a villain.

    The wizard who is sending him back warns about how kender and several other races aren't allowed to be sent back because it could really fuck over the timestream or something. Cue Tasslehoff, having been transfigured into a mouse, deciding he's going to join, despite knowing he could potentially doom everyone, because he would be "missing out on an adventure."

    That kind of selfishness and hedonism isn't endearing.
    Tears streaked down past Tas’s quivering nose, sliding down his whiskers. “Caramon’s going on the greatest adventure of all time!” the kender thought bleakly. “And he’s leaving me behind!”For one wild moment, Tas fought with himself. Everything inside of him that was logical and conscientious and Tanis-like told him—Tasslehoff, don’t be a fool. This is Big Magic. You’re likely to really Mess Things Up! Tas heard that voice, but it was being drowned out by all the chanting and the stones singing and, soon, it vanished altogether.…

    Par-Salian never heard the small squeak. Lost in his casting of the spell, he caught only the barest glimpse of movement out of the comer of his eye. Too late, he saw the mouse streak out of its hiding place, heading straight for the silvery wall of light! Horrified, Par-Salian ceased his chant, the voices of the stones rang hollow and died. In the silence he could now hear the tiny voice, “Don’t leave me, Caramon! Don’t leave me! You know what trouble you’ll get into without me!”

    The mouse ran through the silver powder, scattering a sparkling trail behind it, and burst into the lighted circle. Par-Salian heard a small, tinging sound and saw a ring roll round and round on the stone floor. He saw a third figure materialize in the circle, and he gasped in horror. Then the pulsing figures were gone. The light of the circle was sucked into a great vortex, the laboratory was plunged into darkness.Weak and exhausted, Par-Salian collapsed onto the floor. His last thought, before he lost consciousness, was a terrible one. He had sent a kender back in time.
    Last edited by warellis; November 10th, 2019 at 03:29 AM.

  4. #3924
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six SpoonyViking's Avatar
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    Weak and exhausted, Par-Salian collapsed onto the floor. His last thought, before he lost consciousness, was a terrible one. He had sent a kender back in time.
    See, this is what I meant about the narrative not acknowledging the kenders' flaws. Par-Salian had his full concentration on casting a spell which leaves him so exhausted he collapses immediately afterwards, and yet Tasslehoff jumping into the portal is framed as his fault.
    My fanfics:
    The Gift (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot)
    - A duel between Cú Chulainn and Scáthach.
    Passion Acknowledged (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot) (Lemon) - Shirou and Shinji finally acknowledge their feelings.
    He Was a Good King (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot) - A short exploration of Beowulf's character as a hero and a king.
    A Fairy Tale of Love and Death (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot) - A meeting between Scáthach and King Hassan in the distant past.

  5. #3925
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Twelveseal's Avatar
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    Ueh... That's unpleasant. Iirc, doesn't Tass actually wreck the timeline or something? I seem to remember something about an alternative future with a somewhat... consolidated pantheon and a brief glimpse of Demogorgon that actually managed to scare the iconic Kender despite their immunity to fear.

    Then again, this could be wrong. I couldn't stomach Weiss and Hickman's writing past the second book. I'm running on heresay from an old DM who was a fan.
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  6. #3926
    I judge your avatar and and I can not lie Deathhappens's Avatar
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    Nah, I think that coupled with Tass' internal monologue the narrative makes it abundantly clear it's his fault and his fault alone if he fucks things up (which, if I recall, he does). Par-Salian's line is merely there to underscore how terrible things are when even the wise wizard is afraid of the consequences. Where the narrative DOES fuck up, however, is in framing Tass' decision as in any way noble and about protecting Caramon when we already know it's just his kender "sense of adventure" getting the better of him.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I dunno, the weird thing about Dragonlance is that while I couldn't stomach the very first books (they read VERY old-fashioned, with the mustache-twirling Paladin challenging people to fights for doubting his honor, the very honorable and very naked Barbarian, the priestess with the healing staff, all that), I remember having picked up a book from much further in the series at random and enjoying it much more despite having next to no context to frame it around. It focusing on Raistlin probably helped.
    Quote Originally Posted by I3uster View Post
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  7. #3927
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twelveseal View Post
    Ueh... That's unpleasant. Iirc, doesn't Tass actually wreck the timeline or something? I seem to remember something about an alternative future with a somewhat... consolidated pantheon and a brief glimpse of Demogorgon that actually managed to scare the iconic Kender despite their immunity to fear.

    Then again, this could be wrong. I couldn't stomach Weiss and Hickman's writing past the second book. I'm running on heresay from an old DM who was a fan.
    Technically, it's Raistlin who fucks up the timeline because he wants to kill Takhsis (not Demogorgon), and usurp her power to become a god himself. His actions then create a bad future where everyone on Krynn is pretty much dead, before Caramon has to go back in time again to convince Raistlin to not do it.

    Tas helped Raistlin by accidentally destroying some sort of gizmo that could've been a real threat to his plans, in Book 1 of the time travel trilogy.

    Also it was Takhsis that scared Tass shitless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Nah, I think that coupled with Tass' internal monologue the narrative makes it abundantly clear it's his fault and his fault alone if he fucks things up (which, if I recall, he does). Par-Salian's line is merely there to underscore how terrible things are when even the wise wizard is afraid of the consequences. Where the narrative DOES fuck up, however, is in framing Tass' decision as in any way noble and about protecting Caramon when we already know it's just his kender "sense of adventure" getting the better of him.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I dunno, the weird thing about Dragonlance is that while I couldn't stomach the very first books (they read VERY old-fashioned, with the mustache-twirling Paladin challenging people to fights for doubting his honor, the very honorable and very naked Barbarian, the priestess with the healing staff, all that), I remember having picked up a book from much further in the series at random and enjoying it much more despite having next to no context to frame it around. It focusing on Raistlin probably helped.
    You probably tried reading the 1st trilogy, which was pretty much a story version of Weiss & Hickman's D&D group adventure session. Like all the main characters were ones rolled up and played by them and their friends.

    They feel generic because they sort of were generic, on purpose IIRC. Each character was supposed to represent a class. Caramon, Raistlin, Tanis Half-Elven, Flint, Tasslehoff, and the two barbarian characters were the MCs of the first book. Then Laurana, Tanis's fiance, became another main character during the 1st trilogy.

    Second trilogy primarily revolved aroud Raistlin and was the time travel one.

    Frankly, I never liked Raistlin. People claim he's sort of deep in both trilogies but generally, he's just an evil asshole who is occasionally nice to gully dwarges.

    Frankly, Caramon was more interesting than Raistlin. Because he really grew in depth in the time travel trilogy. Yeah Raistlin grew some as well character wise but hebwas generally an evil dick up until the end where the power of love and the bond between the brothers has him sacrifice himself to save the timeline (that he fucked up.)
    Last edited by warellis; November 11th, 2019 at 05:48 PM.

  8. #3928
    Author of Mages Twi's Avatar
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    So, I just spent from about 9 AM to 3 AM playing a One-Shot that I enjoyed more than I thought I would. The DM had us enter as Level 6 characters and we were on a ship that was getting eaten by a whale ship I was pretty sure based of Davy Jones, and despite our best efforts we ended up in Davy Jones locker. Which was an underwater cave system or grotto. Then we had to fight Davy Jones as the boss fight after going through a few maps, giant crabs, a giant octopus, and some creature that exploded if you killed it with fire.

    We almost died horribly, but he told me that he'd designed the boss to be a challenge only for me to basically whittle him down to 1 HP in about 3-4 turns. Since he let me play as a Triton Eldritch Knight + Dual Wielder Feat, I wasn't encumbered by the water that counted as difficult terrain and so I basically just Attack + Bonus Attack + Extra Attack (Action Surge one turn in particular). He admitted that I probably would have killed the boss sooner if I'd risked moving while under Booming Blade, and didn't shrug off the Ray of Enfeeblement after he tried to Misty Step away. I couldn't go after him because I didn't want to take unnecessary damage, but since I had Shield his Magic Missile Barrage basically did nothing.


    He did almost get me with the Fireball. I kept getting Dex fails, so the one time I passed was the one where he launched it so I got to shrug the most of it off, but then he managed to get me with a Green Flame + Absorb Element combo that took me down and would have gotten the Barbarian if he didn't have Relentless Endurance.


    I enjoyed the chance to experiment with a new build I had in mind.
    Yet the burden shall be shared by two entwined, from which the sword will part from the body and be bestowed upon the vassal to sacrifice themselves and cleave through space and time.

    Mark upon this unworthy flesh the emblem of the sacrifice, the vassal whose death shall bring forth victory through the fields of steel and blood!

    The oath is laid here. We are the ones who represent all the good within the pure lands, and we are the ones who judge what is evil within the pure lands. Thou, Seven Heavens clad in three mere words of unequal power, shall emerge from the spiral of control, O keeper of the balance—!


  9. #3929
    A Dragon Once More Draconic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twelveseal View Post
    Then again, this could be wrong. I couldn't stomach Weiss and Hickman's writing past the second book. I'm running on heresay from an old DM who was a fan.
    Read them when I was a kid. You're not wrong. The writing isn't good.

    Honestly though, what riles me about Dragonlance is that Weiss and Hickman insist in interviews that Takhesis isn't Tiamat and that Paladine isn't Bahamut, when they clearly are. After reading that, I couldn't help but feel like they were trying to say that Dragonlance wasn't Dungeons & Dragons, as though it's somehow a piece of independent literature that's above a 'mere board game.'


    Evil dragon goddess with five heads that each represent one of the five different breeds of chromatic dragon.

    Yeah, that's totally just
    based on Tiamat. No direct relation whatsoever.


    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, doesn't Raistlin get completely and inexplicably recharacterized as some sort of saint in the third trilogy? Basically Medivh in not!D&D?

    I read the third trilogy first, and I was expecting Raistlin to be rough around the edges but sympathetic, not a total fiend.

    Quote Originally Posted by warellis View Post
    Honestly kender, tinker gnomes, and especially gully dwarves (who were made pretty much only to give Raistlin *some* humanity), probably shouldn't be playable races.
    Gully Dwarves should never have been created in the first place. They're beyond insufferable.

    "Two! No more than two!"
    Good god... I mean, they're literally too dumb to live. They would walk into a dragon's mouth if it told them there was something tasty at the back of its tongue, and that the last person who went in hasn't come back because they're still eating after half an hour.
    How did they give Raistlin humanity? I recall him choosing not to kill one after the battle against the horde of draconians in cauldrons on chains, but I can't remember anything else.

    That battle was a mess, by the way. It was just... incoherent. If memory serves, the narrative made it appear as though there really were only two draconians at first, and then suddenly there's another and another and another. None of them were introduced through the narrative until they were attacking or being killed, or before they were described as a horde, and the cauldrons they're all standing in were illustrated to only hold two humanoids, so how was there swordfighting going on, and how the fuck were they running towards the party? EXPLAIN!! But no, seriously, please don't...

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  10. #3930
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six
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    Gully dwarves were awful. I don't understand any thought process behind them.

    At least with kender, they wanted to give an excuse as to why a halfling could only be a thief (as AD&D forced halflings to be that apparently).

  11. #3931
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six SpoonyViking's Avatar
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    Nah, AD&D halflings could also be Fighters and Fighter/Thieves, too. Maybe Cleric and Druid as well?
    My fanfics:
    The Gift (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot)
    - A duel between Cú Chulainn and Scáthach.
    Passion Acknowledged (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot) (Lemon) - Shirou and Shinji finally acknowledge their feelings.
    He Was a Good King (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot) - A short exploration of Beowulf's character as a hero and a king.
    A Fairy Tale of Love and Death (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot) - A meeting between Scáthach and King Hassan in the distant past.

  12. #3932
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Twelveseal's Avatar
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    Apparently it's something close to what Warellis said. Just probably an early version. Also, I'm wondering if the whole Tiamat/Bahamut thing might not be about the authors' religious beliefs and community... Tiamat and Bahamut being legit pagan deities while all the gods in Krynn are new and not "real" gods. Might have been a decision to make a less "questionable" setting for their group. Might also explain the reference to a god Raistlin couldn't possibly kill... and also why said deity doesn't appear, as that could be considered a blasphemy...

    And yes, Gully Dwarves are garbage made just so Raistlin could have a Gully Dwarf admirer that he befriended/treated decently because she was also an outcast or something.
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    [16:43] <Twelveseal> Phallus in wonderland sounds like some bad loli-rape KC fanfic
    [16:43] <@Sei> THAT'S what i wanna see




  13. #3933
    Author of Mages Twi's Avatar
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    I've learned early-level monk with Magic Initiate Druid is pretty useful in the beginning of a campaign. Especially with new players during a one-shot. You can Shelliagh up your Quarter Staff for magic damage and still get an Bonus Action Unarmed Strike the next turn because it counts as a Monk Weapon, and if you take Goodberry then you get what amounts to a guaranteed 10 points of healing during a Short Rest rather than relying on Hit Dice. Druidcraft is probably useful in a survival situation, but Thorn Whip might be useful as well in positioning enemies who got pass you to the squishy mages so if they want to run they don't provoke opportunity attacks.
    Yet the burden shall be shared by two entwined, from which the sword will part from the body and be bestowed upon the vassal to sacrifice themselves and cleave through space and time.

    Mark upon this unworthy flesh the emblem of the sacrifice, the vassal whose death shall bring forth victory through the fields of steel and blood!

    The oath is laid here. We are the ones who represent all the good within the pure lands, and we are the ones who judge what is evil within the pure lands. Thou, Seven Heavens clad in three mere words of unequal power, shall emerge from the spiral of control, O keeper of the balance—!


  14. #3934
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six SpoonyViking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twelveseal View Post
    And yes, Gully Dwarves are garbage made just so Raistlin could have a Gully Dwarf admirer that he befriended/treated decently because she was also an outcast or something.
    Treated decently while she was under the effects of a mind-altering spell he cast on her himself, so...
    (Yes, I know the authors wanted that scene to make Raistlin more sympathetic, but eh. They goofed up.)
    My fanfics:
    The Gift (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot)
    - A duel between Cú Chulainn and Scáthach.
    Passion Acknowledged (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot) (Lemon) - Shirou and Shinji finally acknowledge their feelings.
    He Was a Good King (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot) - A short exploration of Beowulf's character as a hero and a king.
    A Fairy Tale of Love and Death (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot) - A meeting between Scáthach and King Hassan in the distant past.

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