For Power Word Kill, I'm pretty sure the RAW would follow what the RAW are said to be for Disintegrate in that above Sage Advice. The RAI, though, should be that Power Word Kill doesn't kill the Druid just because the Wild Shape form is at or less than 100 HP, given what the RAI for Disintegrate is.
Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart
I disagree. For the purposes of reaching 0 hit points, it's clear that RAI the Disintegrate spell really means "the Druid's own HP and not Wildshape HP"; it's a bit of an invisible parenthetical. But Power Word Kill doesn't reduce your hit points. Your current hit points at the time are the beast's hit points. It just kills you.
You can think of the Druid hit points and Wild Shape hit points as two separate states that the Druid switches between. As far as the game is concerned, you only have whatever hit points you have in the current state when Power Word Kill affects you.
I'm a bit puzzled where you're getting that "dying = reverting to normal form" from, except maybe the Wildshape description. When it mentions that you revert on death, it means actual death. So you get PWK'd, you die, then your dead kangaroo form turns back into a dead druid.
It makes sense. It's a 9th level spell, after all.
That's my take anyway.
He never sleeps. He never dies.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
Mhmm, would it make sense to add the druid's hp with the creature's hp
given that after the animal form health pool gets to 0, the druid is on his own hp pool again
(best to just talk to DM/players at the table I guess)
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actually reading it again its not about hp at all
rip druidWhen you transform, you assume the beast's hit point and Hit Dice.
forget I said anything
Power Word Kill doesn't specify your current hit points.
So if a Druid has both their normal form's hit points and the Wild Shape's hit points, then how exactly does this get resolved?
So your Wild Shape form dies, which causes you to revert back to your still living Druid form. Unless it's established somewhere that dying in a Wild Shape/Polymorph means you die in your normal form too.You can think of the Druid hit points and Wild Shape hit points as two separate states that the Druid switches between. As far as the game is concerned, you only have whatever hit points you have in the current state when Power Word Kill affects you.
I'm a bit puzzled where you're getting that "dying = reverting to normal form" from, except maybe the Wildshape description. When it mentions that you revert on death, it means actual death. So you get PWK'd, you die, then your dead kangaroo form turns back into a dead druid.While I can see how Power Word Kill could still kill you this way, I was thinking it meant things that there is no question about how you die, such as old age or having a Primary Stat reduced to 0.
But assume ~= becomes, it means to take on, as in addition to.
Last edited by Trubo; March 25th, 2018 at 03:28 PM.
for what its worth
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/02...dead-or-alive/
maybe this helps?
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personally I'd say either case works when you explain it properly, and just talk to the DM/GM or decide for yourself
(these are just guidelines anyway huehue)
Again, it's not specific enough. When does the 100 or less hit points kick in: the Wild Shape's hit points only or total hit points from Wild Shape and Druid's normal form?
Unrelated, now been in a discussion where people are using War Caster to justify using a reach weapon to apply BB or GFB to a target within 5' of them. My view is that, while this might be RAW, it's pretty clearly abusing a feat to take advantage of a spell released well after the PHB to do something that's normally prohibited during an OA (using a reach weapon for OA before the target exceeds the reach weapon's reach).
The best part is that this raises the potential for a spell caster to just walk around with a whip, wait for something that tries to run 10' away, before blasting the with a ranged spell attack at no disadvantage.
Last edited by Trubo; March 23rd, 2018 at 07:34 PM.
Wait, Wild Shape now gives you an additional pool of Hit Points? Is that it?
What about the shapeshifting spells, like Polymorph and Polymorph Others?
My impression is that's how it always worked for 5e. Otherwise I see no reason to distinguish between the Wild Shape's hit points and the Druid's normal hit points.
If your interpretation is correct, Trubo, I think that's a very silly change by 5E.
Isn't the consensus that normally you need the Spell Sniper feat to extend BB and GFB to a reach weapon (which is a niche enough feat I don't think it's abusive)?
They're not wanting to use a reach weapon to BB/GFB via War Caster at 10'. They want to use a reach weapon to hit something at 5' via War Caster because War Caster exchanges Opportunity Attack for a limited Cast a Spell action, and use the reach weapon as the weapon component for BB/GFB.
RAW, I can see an argument for it. RAI, I think it's dumb since it's pretty clear that you shouldn't be able to use reach weapons for an Opportunity Attack since the PHB goes into pretty good detail about that, and the only reason it can work for RAW is because War Caster was made long before BB/GFB were things to consider. I especially don't like this because it grants a bonus to a weapon type that not all people with proficiency in said weapon can benefit from, as opposed to Polearm Master and Crossbow Master.
I don't get how it works.
War Caster only lets you target the original creature. For War Caster to let you cast a spell at all, the creature has to already be trying to get out of range, ie, 10 feet. If they're that far out, then casting a spell with a range of only 5 feet won't hit them.
He never sleeps. He never dies.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
Oh yeah that makes no sense. 5ft isn't out of reach, so no AoT should be triggered.
They're claiming that, since Crawford says a player can have multiple reaches depending on the weapons they used, that they can trigger the OA with their unarmed strike, then cast a spell via War Caster using a reach weapon.
I mean, RAW, that's plausible, but RAI that's abusing a feat written before spells like BB/GFB even existed. What's worse is that this interpretation basically removes any reason for a spell caster to get Sentinel. I mean, you lose out on the ability to OA even if the opponent Disengages, but BB then lets you mimic nearly all other parts of Sentinel but for better damage.
Also, this would imply that a person with a reach weapon can wait for a target to move past 10' before using War Caster to Eldritch Blast or other ranged spell attack for no disadvantage.
Not trying to start a fight or anything, but I found another thing in the PHB that doesn't make this so clear cut.
I checked the PHB errata to see what, if anything, was mentioned about the Wizard's spellbook or multiclassing, but didn't find anything.
RAW, if you take a level in Wizard via multiclassing, you get six 1st-level Wizard spells. Since you don't start with a spellbook, it makes sense to buy one for 50g before multiclassing to Wizard, but nothing in the multiclass rules states that you then need to spend an additional 300g to get your six 1st-level Wizard spells. To me this makes sense, as none of the other classes you multiclass to have to spend anything on obtaining their proficiencies (as stated via the multiclas proficiency table) and first level features. They'd still need to buy equipment, but this won't run most people more than 50g-100g.
RAI, I see your point and agree with it to an extent; you don't just become a Wizard out of thin air, but then no one just becomes a multiclass out of thin air. Via the one DM variant rule where levels require a long rest, characters use this time to prepare themselves for the multiclass. While it would make sense to require downtime days for multiclass purposes, nothing is explicitly stated.
For a homebrew game, the DM is free to do whatever they want. For AL purposes though, this grey area is an issue that I wish one of the 5e rules team members would address, especially if they want AL to be their official gameplay style.
Last edited by Trubo; March 30th, 2018 at 09:44 PM.
Sorry Trubo if I'm hijacking the topic a bit, but I'd like to ask the thread about something semi-related.
That is,.gish buildsspellcasters with melee abilities
While I suppose solo classes like Eldritch Knight, Paladin or Cleric are pretty much gish already, I'm more looking into a multiclass with sorcerer and, well something else.
I've been looking online for some helpful insights into multiclass gishes, but I'm not sure about some potential problems as well as vague issues that I didn't really find a clear answer for. Things like cutoff in terms of levels/abilities, choice of weapons (think weapon + shield/focus, as well as whether to go dex/strength) and spell selection in general.
I hope you guys can help a bit with some questions. Given that there already is a (strangely very Fate themed) decent guide for sorcerer paladins, I'll just ask some more basic things.
So for starters, does anyone here have any (or a lot of) experience with playing gish builds? Perhaps a build you enjoyed, or an idea you would enjoy but never tried? And if so, do you have any tips, things to avoid or that are helpful to know before getting into these kinds of builds?
Can someone clarify how effective cantrips, like Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade or other close range cantrips are in comparison to Extra Attack? Or is it usually better damage wise to go for extra attack, making the cutoff point later in the game?
What would normal combat look like with gish builds? (a bit hard to answer, given how diverse every encounter can be)
How scary is it as a gish to lose most of your magical power?
And lastly whether or not multiclassing will eventually end up, not feeling very differently from staying in a single class.
Or just any fun ideas for a gish build in general, since I'm sure there's tons of possibilities I'd never think of myself. (Preferably not too MAD)
If you want gish, I'd say go Bladesinging Wizard or Hexblade Warlock as your main focus.
Bladesingers don't really need a multiclass, but some good options there would be Rogue or Cleric.
I'd recommend starting Rogue for the extra skill versus going Wizard -> Rogue. Problem here is that you'll have to decide on whether to take Resilient (Con) or Resilient (Wis), but Bladesingers can kind of get away from needing Resilient (Con) thanks to Bladesong letting them add their Int for Concentration checks. Once that's decided:
- First level gets you some nice stuff (Expertise on two skills or a skill and thieves' tools), Sneak Attack (no more than 1d6 or 2d6, depending on number of levels you take)
- Second level gets you Cunning Action(won't be able to use on turn you Bladesing, but free dash for 80 feet of movement on the other turns isn't bad)
- Third level for better Sneak Attack and Archetype (Arcane Trickster for more spells, Inquisitive for RP and combat, Scout for more skills and a pretty handy reaction, or Swashbuckler for Fancy Footwork basically being Mobile without the movement speed increase)
- Fourth level for ASI
I really don't recommend going past this point, as at some point you need to start going Wizard for spells. Personally, I wouldn't go past 1 or 2, especially if you plan on playing at end level since Wizard has a very good level 18 class feature (unlimited casts of your favorite first and second level spells? yes please)
If you go Cleric, I'd either start for the Cha saving throw proficiency or multiclass to keep the Int proficiency. Either way, go Knowledge for skills (2 expertise from Arcana, History, Nature, Religion), maybe life to have some of the useful buff spells always prepared, but I can't think of many first level Cleric spells I'd want prepared beyond Healing Word, Bless, and Protection from Good and Evil.
Warlock can benefit from multiclassing to Paladin for more smites, or Sorcerer for more spell slots, metamagic, and sorcerer points. I'm no expert on them, but you can find plenty of multiclassing guides for them online without too much effort.
Spell-wise, Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade are pretty good options for you gish, but don't neglect ranged options either. Toll the Dead is probably your best ranged cantrip, with Firebolt being a close second. If you went Cleric, grab Sacred Flame.
Gish spells don't really start until 5th level with Steel Wind Strike. Could take Shadow Blade at 3rd level for a stronger weapon than normal, but that's a concentration spell.
I've played many tastes of gish in 5e, and thing is as always it depends on what you want to focus on. Gishes come in many flavours, from "able to cast less spells, but tougher defensively" to "can cast many spells but squishier".
Paladin and Eldritch Knight for instance have bigger hit die than other gishes and more defensive features, meaning they're better at the whole "wade into melee and fight like there's no tomorrow" at the cost of having less spell slots in the case of the EK unless you multiclass as wizard, or in the Paladin's instance, spending most slots anyway on smites rather than casting your spells. Paladin is a nova melee hitter and can provide secondary healing with lay on hands out of combat, and have many many tanky features like auras and damage options, making them ideal if you don't want to die or face save or sucks like fear too often and kill nasty undead and demons extremely fast before they fuck up your party. Eldritch Knight is a jack of all trades subclass that adds casting ability to the resilient fighter chassis of Action Surge, Second Wind, heavy armor, more ASIs than any other class, up to 3 extra attacks, and stuff like War Magic that makes the best out of cantrips like Booming Blade and even teleportation later on that doesn't consume a slot when you action surge. It's not the best damage dealer but it's solid for everything, just like Fighters in general.
In the middle you have the Hexblade Warlock. It's got the perfect balance between spellcasting and martial prowess, and thanks to invocations you can customize it as you please. Decent hit dice, decent proficiencies in armor and weapons, best cantrip in the game and awesome melee damage options. However, the Warlock spell list and slots system is rather limited, and you will spend most of the time using damage cantrips and your actual spells for AoE damage or utility. On its own it's strong, if you combine with multiclass you can do some fun stuff with that. They can take hits and return the damage in kind, but watch out for surprise attacks and AoE if you lack the means to absorb damage from AoE or have a meh dex save, those can hurt. On the other hand, once you take Fly and spam Eldritch Blast, you can be the goddamned Iron Man, and go into melee as you please with little to no repercussions.
Then we have full Casters like the Valor Bard. Albeit at first seemingly unimpressive, Bards have some nifty stuff going for them, you can grab warlock cantrips like Green Flamde Blade to dish out solid melee damage every round with Magic Initiate if you go Variant Human and they are specialists in ending encounters before they even begin. They have less damage than the prior classes, but far more utility: at low levels you can put people to sleep, give extra HP, make your enemies laugh their asses off and keep them from being able to do anything, heal on a bonus action, become invisible, make someone hallucinate, heat their armor while they wear it so they cook inside alive or tell them they're from that island over there and they should start swimming to get there. Valor bards gain extra attack and at level 14 cast a spell and slash. Good times. And being able to steal spells from other classes at level 10 and onwards is gravy. At level 18 Valor bards can cast wish.
War Clerics are same old good. Heal, buff, attack (albeit a limited amount of times per day unless you multiclass), level 9 spellcaster goodness all over the place. Is among the most SAD you'll ever see, as you only need WIS and some CON, especially if you grab Shillelagh with Magic Initiate. Tempest Clerics are also very strong in melee, although both are hard to consider a gish, though, if at all.
Then you have Bladesinger wizard. It's a powerful class, but you don't have as many means to cast n' slash, and you are very very squishy. A d6 hit dice can only be squeezed for so much health, meaning you can wade into melee but as levels increase it's less likely you'll want to as the monsters increase their damage output. In fact, you want to put as many meatshields in front of you as possible.
Multiclassing in 5e can be quite powerful sometimes, but it's generally only done as dips because some of the capstone features are quite strong in some classes, and most are only viable at high levels like the Sorcerer + Paladin or Paladin + Hexblade build.
Summary of how each gish plays:
-Paladin. You want to kill the final bosses really really fast? Then this is for you. Very resource heavy, but when you do hit you hit like a truck on steroids. You can heal others out of combat as well, and give passive bonuses to your allies. Starts slow but becomes strong as you level up.
-Eldritch Knight Fighter. You can hit hard with a sword, you can self heal as a bonus action, you can cast some spells, everyone will be better than you at their own thing but you are very independent. Jack of all trades, master of none except being excellent at surviving stuff the other classes below would struggle at.
-Hexblade Warlock. Very strong DPR. You have the best damage cantrips in the game, invocations and a lot of damage combos. If what you want is consistent over the top damage, this is the class for you, at the cost of some durability when compared to the two above.
-Valor Bard. Jank the shit out of everything because you're a bard. Less DPR than the other classes, but far better support abilities and you can do everything in the game. Jack of all trades, master of all thanks to Magical Secrets and spells like Suggestion. You can also steal Steel Wind Strike and many other goodies later on.
-War Cleric. Hardly a gish, but Cleric is the most SAD class ever designed. Just pump that wisdom and maybe STR/CON and enjoy kicking ass in the name of your deity.
-Bladesinger Wizard. Very cool but possibly the most frail gish, limiting your CQC ability in the latter levels. At first you'll be awesoming it up, later on you'll want to put meatshields between you and the nasties.
[22:42] <Leo> look it's not our fault we can function properly with a cock in our mouthes
I don't know, it all seems pretty clear to me.
Other class features aren't automatically useable either; you can't use certain weapon or armor proficiencies without having those weapons or armor, and simply multiclassing into them doesn't just give those to you. The Fighter has to save up for his plate armor. Even if you start as a Ranger, you don't get a component pouch or arcane focus by default. But even if that wasn't the case, nobody said all the classes had to be the same. The wizard class lists the stuff about the spellbook because it's just common sense that they're going to start the game with a spellbook at level 1.
Here's another way to look at it.
The wizard has the spellbook listed amongst the default equipment you get when you start the game. That spellbook must be the same one referred to in the class features; otherwise, you'd be getting TWO spellbooks, the one given to you by the class feature, and the one in your equipment. But we know that's not the case. So the spellbook in your default equipment is the same spellbook you get as a wizard.
You're allowed to ignore all that equipment and just roll for gold, buying whatever specific items you want. That means it's possible to start the game at level 1 without a spellbook because you either chose not to buy it or didn't get enough gold. That means the presence of the spellbook is not assumed.
He never sleeps. He never dies.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
I agree. However, if they were to randomly stumble upon an item that their newfound proficiency granted them use, they could simply put it on and have no issue. The Wizard would have to spend a significant amount of time to decode a randomly found spellbook to be able to use the spells found in it, represented by the 50g and 2 hours of downtime per spell level.
If I'm repeating myself, sorry, but then why not just state that the spellbook with six 1st level spells as part of the equipment section rather than the 1st level feature? That it is specified as a 1st level feature implies that the developers meant to put it there rather than somewhere else in the Wizard class description.But even if that wasn't the case, nobody said all the classes had to be the same. The wizard class lists the stuff about the spellbook because it's just common sense that they're going to start the game with a spellbook at level 1.
Here's another way to look at it.
The wizard has the spellbook listed amongst the default equipment you get when you start the game. That spellbook must be the same one referred to in the class features; otherwise, you'd be getting TWO spellbooks, the one given to you by the class feature, and the one in your equipment. But we know that's not the case. So the spellbook in your default equipment is the same spellbook you get as a wizard.
Not necessarily. A spellbook doesn't have to be a super fancy book that has a base cost of 50g.You're allowed to ignore all that equipment and just roll for gold, buying whatever specific items you want. That means it's possible to start the game at level 1 without a spellbook because you either chose not to buy it or didn't get enough gold. That means the presence of the spellbook is not assumed.
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