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[anamesis]

...I skipped a couple pages, but whenever you guys mention relativism I am simply reminded of the book variable star that had a spacecraft that ran on relativity engines.


like...literally, there was a group of people who's soul purpose on the ship was to believe that it was possible to be moving through space so that it would.


I might be remembering this wrong.

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...I skipped a couple pages, but whenever you guys mention relativism I am simply reminded of the book variable star that had a spacecraft that ran on relativity engines.


like...literally, there was a group of people who's soul purpose on the ship was to believe that it was possible to be moving through space so that it would.


I might be remembering this wrong.

PROBABLY AM REMEMBERING THIS WRONG, BUT IT SURE AS FUCK SOUNDS LIKE WHAT I AM THINKING IT IS WHEN I REMEMBER IT

[Ivan The Mouse]

How the hell is saying 'you should be ashamed of yourself' bullying?

By implying that society will not like someone if they don't believe in your argument. And there's more to bullying than your definition given.

Bullying
Using superior strength or influence to intimidate (someone), typically to force him or her to do what one wants.

I don't have 1) superior strength or 2) influence so I can't be using them to intimidate anyone.
I am not forcing (compelling through necessity) anyone to do anything.

"Bullying consists of three basic types of abuse – emotional, verbal, and physical." Now, again, if you tell someone that if they don't back down on their beliefs then they would be ostracized by society. Now tell me, how do you bully someone only emotionally without directly harming the person? Simply insult him or call him out in his weakest point. You're basically using your intellectual strength in bullying the person. And that's possible.

Ashamed
Feeling inferior, inadequate, or embarrassed.

Saying that one should feel ashamed has nothing to do with reputation, rather it is a way of alerting someone that they should wake up.

And because you insulted him or told him of his inadequacy, the person will feel intellectual inferior. Therefore, he is ashamed, especially that you said that he "should be ashamed of himself".

Intimidate
To coerce or inhibit by or as if by threats

Here's another description of "intimidate": "Frighten or overawe (someone), esp. in order to make them do what one wants." Basically, you wanted someone to have a logical belief because that's what you want, so therefore you intimidated him with the threat of societal ostracism in order to make him do what you want. Granted, you are not the whole society itself, but still basically said that "Justification should have a logical backing, so therefore subscribe to this belief or society will not accept you."

Threaten
To declare of the intention to inflict harm, pain, or misery

Further, I am not expressing any desire to hurt anyone by saying 'you should be ashamed of yourself' so I'm not intimidating anyone

Since this definition includes the word "misery", let me define that for you: "A state or feeling of great distress or discomfort of mind or body." Take note, misery can also mean discomfort in the mind.

Discredit
To damage in reputation; disgrace.

I'm most certainly not discrediting anyone with that post because to discredit someone I'd have to impinge on their reputation.

And impinged that someone's reputation by telling him that he is intellectually inferior.

I am merely stating what I believe is most appropriate for the situation.

And again, he does not want what you believe is the appropriate for the situation. But you kept going.

Don't even get started on right and wrong, because there are so many variations of those things that differ across cultures. Use a term that's more realistically provable.

Okay. How about saying that you found the definitions of the words I just used and picked out the parts that you could use to justify your reasoning, ignoring the other parts that could disprove your reasoning? How about that?

Give me an example of a consistently successful individual who doesn't abide by at least some level of sound reasoning.

First, let me state that there's no such thing as consistently successful. If there was, the Roman Empire would still be existing today. Also, I didn't say that there are successful people who didn't have some level of sound reasoning, I just said that there are successful people whose basis in achievement is something irrational.

Because you can personally justify the existence of truth, ie via Descartes's cogito. It is a compelling enough argument in itself that basically concludes as 'truth exists. To say truth does not exist is false.' The sample space for things that indicate or disprove the existence of god is neither as readily nor as easily available. Furthermore, there are so many trains of thought that engaging in a 'god exists or doesn't exist' convo is just asking to waste your own time.

But if the person you're talking to doesn't believe in the cogito, then what's the point of arguing with him about the truth?

Well, you can think boiling yourself in an oven is beneficial to your health. You can think drowning is beneficial to your health. Belief does not dictate actuality.

And that fact will not change the fact that people like Sylvia Plath put her head in an oven, because she believes that doing so will be beneficial to her health. Mainly, emotional health. And there she was, emotionally healthy because she feels nothing anymore.

The fact is, if you do not abide by sound reasoning, you will not be capable of finding solutions to the problems you face and you are essentially condemning yourself to a horrible life or death depending on the situation. How is that not 'terrible'? Are you a masochist or something?

Wait a second.

Are you implying that rationality is a black-and-white engagement? I'll tell you this, some people might believing one thing and doing another. There's no such thing as "totally irrational", because you see to think that if a person's belief is irrational, he will suddenly jump off a cliff. There are people out there who have irrational beliefs and are employing common sense too. You seem to be reducing someone into a gibbering wreck of a man because he has different philosophical beliefs than you.

Fair enough, what would you suggest as an effective criteria to measure a person's degree of stubbornness in their beliefs? You seemed to determine it relatively quickly.

I didn't. I personally know the subject.

[Apple]

By implying that society will not like someone if they don't believe in your argument. And there's more to bullying than your definition given.

1) That's not true.
2) I never said society would.

"Bullying consists of three basic types of abuse – emotional, verbal, and physical." Now, again, if you tell someone that if they don't back down on their beliefs then they would be ostracized by society. Now tell me, how do you bully someone only emotionally without directly harming the person? Simply insult him or call him out in his weakest point. You're basically using your intellectual strength in bullying the person. And that's possible.

The hell is up with you and this bullying/society stuff? I never said society would hate anyone for being weak (although, admittedly, I know more than a couple people who would).

And you really need to differentiate between the example I was giving and what I was actually saying to NZXT. In the post I'm talking about, my point was 'all truths make sense'.

The 'you should be ashamed' bit wasn't even aimed at NZXT, it was meant to illustrate my own paragraph about subjective truths and my own experience of how some people try to force what they claim to be 'truth' on you despite it not actually being truth.

Don't beat down the straw man.

And because you insulted him or told him of his inadequacy, the person will feel intellectual inferior. Therefore, he is ashamed, especially that you said that he "should be ashamed of himself".

Except that, from personal experience with the phrase, nobody ever is ashamed when someone tells them 'you should be ashamed of yourself'. It's supposed to be taken as a heads up that the person needs to change in some way. Intellectual inferiority doesn't even occur in the first place.

Here's another description of "intimidate": "Frighten or overawe (someone), esp. in order to make them do what one wants." Basically, you wanted someone to have a logical belief because that's what you want, so therefore you intimidated him with the threat of societal ostracism in order to make him do what you want. Granted, you are not the whole society itself, but still basically said that "Justification should have a logical backing, so therefore subscribe to this belief or society will not accept you."

And impinged that someone's reputation by telling him that he is intellectually inferior.

I don't understand where you are getting this notion that I am using some kind of social and intellectual weapon to intimidate anyone. It was a goddamn example. Wtf. I have neither 'overawed' nor 'frightened' anyone.

Honestly it feels like you are pulling accusations together from absolutely nothing at all.

Okay. How about saying that you found the definitions of the words I just used and picked out the parts that you could use to justify your reasoning, ignoring the other parts that could disprove your reasoning? How about that?

How about no, I pick the first definitions I can find in google.

First, let me state that there's no such thing as consistently successful. If there was, the Roman Empire would still be existing today.

No, that depends on your definition of consistent success. I was asking for examples of people who were 'successes' of their own merit, not simply because they were lucky.

Also, I might add that many factors that contributed toward the fall of the Roman empire were also grounded on choices made with bad reasoning (gradually entrusted the role of defending the Empire to barbarian mercenaries, lack of a proper budgetary system, wastage, etc).

Also, I didn't say that there are successful people who didn't have some level of sound reasoning, I just said that there are successful people whose basis in achievement is something irrational.

If you can earn money from it, and you keep doing it because it earned you money before, that's making use of inductive reasoning.

It doesn't matter if the 'basis in achievement' was music or art or road sweeping. The important part is that you made use of your logical faculties to come to the conclusion that you were doing well with it previously and so you kept doing it. You're still making effective use of reasoning.

But if the person you're talking to doesn't believe in the cogito, then what's the point of arguing with him about the truth?

Hindsight is 20/20. I wasn't aware he didn't believe in the cogito and couldn't be persuaded before tried I gave up.

And that fact will not change the fact that people like Sylvia Plath put her head in an oven, because she believes that doing so will be beneficial to her health. Mainly, emotional health. And there she was, emotionally healthy because she feels nothing anymore.

Health

1. The state of being free from illness or injury: "he was restored to health"; "a health risk".
2. A person's mental or physical condition.

Nope, not free of injury
Nope, not physically or mentally in good condition
Nope, not healthy

Wait a second.


Are you implying that rationality is a black-and-white engagement? I'll tell you this, some people might believing one thing and doing another. There's no such thing as "totally irrational", because you see to think that if a person's belief is irrational, he will suddenly jump off a cliff. There are people out there who have irrational beliefs and are employing common sense too. You seem to be reducing someone into a gibbering wreck of a man because he has different philosophical beliefs than you.

Sweet Jesus

Why the hell do you keep making me out to be some kind of villain? It's like that's the entire core of your argument.

'Yada yada yada OMG U INSULT HIM EMOTIONALLY TILL HE BREAK yada yada U BULLY HIM yada'

No, I did not bully him. He is not a gibbering wreck of a man because of me. And people are not as ridiculously emotionally fragile as you make them out to be. You are making a mountain out of a molehill.

And, point. How the hell is 'truth does not exist' rational in any way at all? Truth exists. It is not logical to insist that it doesn't. Therefore, it is not rational to insist that it doesn't.

Insisting that truth doesn't exist is neither grounded in nor in accordance with reality, logic or reason.

I didn't. I personally know the subject.

What subject exactly?

Incidentally, i find it a wee bit hypocritical that you constantly talk about reputation while you casually make baseless accusations at me.

[Ivan The Mouse]

Look, I've tried to be calm in this argument even though it is not my problem, it is not what I want and it is against my principle.

And you resorted to this.

'Yada yada yada OMG U INSULT HIM EMOTIONALLY TILL HE BREAK yada yada U BULLY HIM yada'

I see it now. I really see it now.

[Apple]

I have no idea what you see, because frankly I was getting tired of you continually insisting I was bullying someone when I was not.

[Ivan The Mouse]

I have no idea what you see, because frankly I was getting tired of you continually insisting I was bullying someone when I was not.

You won't, I understand that. That's because you're only thinking about yourself.

[Gaia]

Oh god, text walls.

[Sei]

Oh god, text walls.

Just ignore it. <.<

Maybe it'll go away. :/

[Apple]

You won't, I understand that. That's because you're only thinking about yourself.

Bullshit. If I was just thinking of myself I wouldn't even bother trying to bring him around from his state of irrationality.

[KENTA]

Is it bad that I don't even consider these text walls anymore?

[Ivan The Mouse]

Bullshit. If I was just thinking of myself I wouldn't even bother trying to bring him around from his state of irrationality.

If you aren't thinking about yourself, you should understand he won't budge with his irrationality. If you want him to snap out of it, let life do so.

[Apple]

If you aren't thinking about yourself, you should understand he won't budge with his irrationality. If you want him to snap out of it, let life do so.

In case you haven't realized I've stopped bothering talking to him about it long before we resumed this?

[Ivan The Mouse]

In case you haven't realized I've stopped bothering talking to him about it long before we resumed this?

I know. Don't do that. Again. I don't like it. I never liked it. It makes me unbelievably furious at that certain RL friend. Makes me remember what he did to me. Makes me want to dissect that fat fucking bastard.

He must die. He must die at all costs.

[Five_X]

Butts be hurtin' in this thread. Keep it to a minimum, 'kay?

[Ivan The Mouse]

Butts be hurtin' in this thread. Keep it to a minimum, 'kay?

Butts? Understatement.

[Sei]

This isn't butthurt anymore. This is anuspain.

[Ivan The Mouse]

You bastard. Call it whatever you want, but I will kill that fat bastard one day.

[Fingolfin]

Anyone for tea and sushi? I think I've developed a taste for maki as well. It's good stuff. Pricey though.

Wasabi is ridicules. It was like an explosion in my mouth, and not in a good way.

[Apple]

This isn't butthurt anymore. This is anuspain.

Isn't that the exact same thing?

fat

That reminds me, I still have 4 kg to lose.

[Fingolfin]

Honestly, I felt like I lost a few taste buds in the exchange. That's some spicey stuff.