Fate/Grand Order Gameplay Discussion (CONTAINS SPOILERS)

[Enchants]

Well technically Gil has a buff in the test since its built to his NP. Therefore the test for comparison is invalid.

Im not arguing with you, castor. Just pointing it out

[castor212]

Well technically Gil has a buff in the test since its built to his NP. Therefore the test for comparison is invalid.

Im not arguing with you, castor. Just pointing it out

Only what is in both original NP

Plus, the point in this is to say that thanks to the NP dmg up integrated in Gil's NP is what makes his AoE NP hits as hard against Servant as ST NP, so yeah. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Enchants]

Plus, the point in this is to say that thanks to the NP dmg up integrated in Gil's NP is what makes his AoE NP hits as hard against Servant as ST NP, so yeah. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Eh, you edited what you said. But i get it.

[castor212]

Eh, you edited what you said. But i get it.

Yeah, lol, i realize I need to be clear on these matter as much as possible after reading your reply.

[manafusion]

Well, then.

I think it's pretty much clear for people now that I meant Gil's AoE can do same damage as ST, and against three enemy it's ST NP damage to 3 enemies at the same time.

Since manafusion said "Because not everyone can get the right Servants in one team due to luck/financial insufficiency", which is a fair point, Ill do a comparison that uses NO buff at all. Not even the Servants' own buffs from skill.

Gil's AoE NP vs a Servant's ST NP, against Servant.

1st pic is Servants condition before firing NP.
2nd pic is Sca's damage.
3rd pic is, after reloading the game, Gil's NP damage.

No buffs from SKILLS. Only what is in both original NP. Both maxed fou. Both NP lvl1 post interlude, 100% charge. No Atk increase CE. Only Sensei and I for Sca that raises HP, and none for Gil. Waver is brought along only to makes it easier for Arts Chaining.

For reference:

(Upgraded single-target Quick)
1600 x 0.8 = 1280%

(Gil's Upgraded NP @ 100% Overcharge vs Servant)
780 x 1.5 = 1170%

(Upgraded single-target Buster)
700 x 1.5 = 1050%

...

I know Gil has a bit more ATK (+905) than Scathach but... can anyone else confirm that my NP damage multiplier is correct after card type?

FYI, 14k damage is a lot of difference. So, I need to double-confirm on this.


(If my NP damage multiplier is correct, Gil on the highest end of the variance should be getting 86k and not higher. That's why I'm asking if it's correct.)

[lunarw]

If I'm not mistaken, there is a link to a google doc or something that listed out recommended CE for each servant. Either I lost the bookmark or I hallucinated about it.

[Rafflesiac]

Aozaki made something like that. I think it's a few pages back.

[Kyte]

...

I know Gil has a bit more ATK (+905) than Scathach but... can anyone else confirm that my NP damage multiplier is correct after card type?

FYI, 14k damage is a lot of difference. So, I need to double-confirm on this.


(If my NP damage multiplier is correct, Gil on the highest end of the variance should be getting 86k and not higher. That's why I'm asking if it's correct.)

Let's see....
Assuming enemy is Beowulf. Berserker, Earth.
Upgraded Gil vs Svt @100%: 400% * 1.5 * 1.3 * 1.5 = 1170% * 1.1 * 0.95 * 1.5 = 1833.975%
Upgraded Scach: 1600% * 0.8 = 1280% * 1 * 1.05 * 1.5 = 2016%
Upgraded Orion: 1200% * 1 = 1200% * 1.1 * 0.95 * 1.5 = 1881%
Upgraded Kintoki: 700% * 1.5 = 1050% * 0.9 * 1.1 * 1.5 = 1559.25%
I'd assume an upgraded single-target non-Berserker Buster would be 800%.

Scach has 11375 attack. Expected damage is 52743.6 +- 10% = [47469.24, 58017.96]
Gil has 12280 attack. Expected damage is 51798.7899 +- 10% = [46618.91091, 56978.66889]
Forgot to count CE attack tho. And something else 'cause it's too low.
But it's pretty clear the +-10% can make pretty big differences.

[larethian]

Was bored, tried soloing robespierre with tamamo
Stuns are annoying, and that sure wasn't a waste of 20 minutes
Tamamo's pretty great though
What does more damage, her arts brave chain or BAA chain (with fox's wedding and whatever her item creation is)

BAA will always do more damage than any other brave chain that Tamamo is capable of doing due to the bonus 0.5 that gets factored in to the card type/position-related modifier for each card.

I read Trubo's comment with interest so I also went into Math mode to validate the numbers for myself.

For BAA vs AAA, with all conditions being equal, if you factorize all the common parts away, the difference will be affected by only :
(firstCardBonus + (cardDamageValue * (1 + cardMod))) * extraCardModifier

Let (1+BusterCardMod) = x
Let (1+ArtsCardMod) = y

So for BAA-Extra, it will be:
(0.5+1.5x) + (0.5+1.2y) + (0.5+1.4y) + (0.5+1) * 2
= 4.5 + 1.5x + 2.6y

For AAA-Extra, it will be:
(0 + y) + (0 + 1.2y) + (0 + 1.4y) + (0+1) * 3.5
= 3.5 + 3.6y

If there is no BusterCardMod, then x=1, hence BAA-Extra in this case = 6 + 2.6y

I want to find out whether there is a value for ArtsCardMod which will make AAA chain greater than BAA chain, assuming there is no buster card mod, so I solve for the inequality:

3.5 + 3.6y > 6 + 2.6y
y > 2.5
1+ArtsCardMod > 2.5
ArtsCardMod > 1.5

So, with a total of >150% arts boost, AAA chain will outdamage BAA chain. With a support Tamamo, both Tamamos level 10 fox, a Mozart with level 10 Arts up, and formalcraft on main Tamamo, this can be achieved in theory, but a meh thing to setup for a meh amount of additional damage for a chain that may never appear in your meh hand. Unrealistic in practice but fun to know still xD

[Trubo]

Let's see....
Assuming enemy is Beowulf. Berserker, Earth.
Upgraded Gil vs Svt @100%: 400% * 1.5 * 1.3 * 1.5 = 1170% * 1.1 * 0.95 * 1.5 = 1833.975%
Upgraded Scach: 1600% * 0.8 = 1280% * 1 * 1.05 * 1.5 = 2016%
Upgraded Orion: 1200% * 1 = 1200% * 1.1 * 0.95 * 1.5 = 1881%
Upgraded Kintoki: 700% * 1.5 = 1050% * 0.9 * 1.1 * 1.5 = 1559.25%
I'd assume an upgraded single-target non-Berserker Buster would be 800%.

Scach has 11375 attack. Expected damage is 52743.6 +- 10% = [47469.24, 58017.96]
Gil has 12280 attack. Expected damage is 51798.7899 +- 10% = [46618.91091, 56978.66889]
Forgot to count CE attack tho. And something else 'cause it's too low.
But it's pretty clear the +-10% can make pretty big differences.

Kind of confused on what that 1.3 modifier is in Gil's first part. Shouldn't it just be NP Modifier * Card Type * Super Effective, or 4*1.5*1.5? If it's supposed to be Charisma, then that 1.3 should be, at max, 1.21. Don't think it is since you don't list another 1.5 modifier for Kintoki due to Monstrous Strength.

Also, for the non-Berserkers, shouldn't their triangle modifiers be 2 instead of 1.5?

Edit: Oh, I must have missed that EA gives Gil a NP Up modifier. Nevermind.

Edit 2: Also, if you account for Kintoki's base ME, that total modifier comes out to 15.90435, but, as you're quick to point out, the 0.23 modifier to all attacks makes that a bit moot.

[Skittles]

Gil's NP gives him a 30% NP power up now

[castor212]

FYI, 14k damage is a lot of difference. So, I need to double-confirm on this.

But it's pretty clear the +-10% can make pretty big differences.

maybe I got lucky and hit the low end for Sca and high end for Gil? I mean, i honestly didnt expect that Gil would actually overdamage Sca lol

[Aozaki-desu]

If I'm not mistaken, there is a link to a google doc or something that listed out recommended CE for each servant. Either I lost the bookmark or I hallucinated about it.

here

[manafusion]

Let's see....
Assuming enemy is Beowulf. Berserker, Earth.

Values

Yup, I forgot about Type (Sky/Earth/Man) modifier when doing the calculations. Sigh.


EDIT: Also, if I'm getting it right, the last 1.5 value is 'versus class' modifier, right? Shouldn't it be 2.0 for everyone but Kintoki?

I read Trubo's comment with interest so I also went into Math mode to validate the numbers for myself.

For BAA vs AAA, with all conditions being equal, if you factorize all the common parts away, the difference will be affected by only :
(firstCardBonus + (cardDamageValue * (1 + cardMod))) * extraCardModifier

Values

I, err... don't get where your '* 2' and '* 3.5' comes from.

EDIT: NVM, I found out.

[Kyte]

Yes I derped with the triangle modifier.

- - - Updated - - -

That 0.23 compresses the shit out of small modifiers and differences in attack value in general.

[Enchants]

here

Seeing Lancelot only needs Kscope is kinda bad. He needs help.

I love how almost all buster NP type servant has maiden lead CE. The CE is the bomb.

Also, id recommend black grail on Saber Shiki. It great on her.

[castor212]

Btw, after using Gil a lot, it seems like both his stargen and Np gen is better?

Star gen is explainable because of 8 hit extra, but does any hidden status was changed?

I mean, 2nd and 3rd card arts crit with GR before upgrade give me 50 to 60 percent. Now it gives me 80 to 90 percent.

[manafusion]

Btw, after using Gil a lot, it seems like both his stargen and Np gen is better?

Star gen is explainable because of 8 hit extra, but does any hidden status was changed?

I mean, 2nd and 3rd card arts crit with GR before upgrade give me 50 to 60 percent. Now it gives me 80 to 90 percent.

Have you considered the fact about Arts first? I got from 0 to 100% from 2nd and 3rd Arts crit because of Arts first bonus and Arts chain with only level 6 Golden Rule.

Did a non-Arts chain but with Arts First Bonus to check the NP gain of only 3rd Arts crit w/ lvl6 Golden Rule. Gained 50% NP.

[Enchants]

Have you considered the fact about Arts first? I got from 0 to 100% from 2nd and 3rd Arts crit because of Arts first bonus and Arts chain with only level 6 Golden Rule.

Did a non-Arts chain but with Arts First Bonus to check the NP gain of only 3rd Arts crit w/ lvl6 Golden Rule. Gained 50% NP.

Yeah his gain is pretty nuts if you get 2 crit arts -golden rule- brave chain.

Even if its like A-[Q-A], thats like 80-90% depending on GR level.

Of course its requires set-up. But the bright sight theres a lot of servants (and CEs) that gives on demand stars. Also the saber mystic code just works wonders.

[castor212]

Have you considered the fact about Arts first? I got from 0 to 100% from 2nd and 3rd Arts crit because of Arts first bonus and Arts chain with only level 6 Golden Rule.

Did a non-Arts chain but with Arts First Bonus to check the NP gain of only 3rd Arts crit w/ lvl6 Golden Rule. Gained 50% NP.

It was his buster NP arts arts