Fate/Grand Order Story and Lore (CONTAINS SPOILERS)

[Deathhappens]

Its kinda unlikely

HGW is, even on moon, about summoning Heroic Spirit and go fight each other

Hypothetically speaking, say Armstrong is not HS and is summoned as a Servant.

Whats even the point

Its too complicated without serving any real purpose

Armstronf being a Servant not derived from HS just feels unlikely and unnecessarily complicated compared to Armstrong is HS to begin with.

Tho i personally feel this could be just a running gag they went with and keep on keeping it to mess with readers.

And yet that's the only way to reconcile "The Moon Cell uses its records to summon Servants" (actively uses, not just passively has a good connection with the Throne due to possessing the records) and "The Moon Cell summons Heroic Spirits by connecting directly to the Throne".

Unless it only connects to the Throne to summon HS sometimes and not others. Now THAT is unneccesarily complicated.

[yokushi]

To make things harder there is even the case with Apo Jack and Jeanne destroying the evil spirits in such a manner they will never be summoned again in that timeline ever.

Shit is weird.

[castor212]

The records are the same thing.

[Trubo]

The quote specifically says that, in order to summon a Heroic Spirit in the Moon Cell, you connect to the Throne of Heroes. (Although it doesn't say that's THE ONLY WAY to summon a Heroic Spirit, but anyway).

I'm arguing that the Moon Cell can also summon Servants that aren't

Recorded in the Throne of Heroes

Heroic Spirits

It doesn't need to specify alternate ways. Servants must be copies of Heroic Spirits, and Heroic Spirits reside in the Throne of Heroes.

To make things harder there is even the case with Apo Jack and Jeanne destroying the evil spirits in such a manner they will never be summoned again in that timeline ever.

Shit is weird.

Stripper loli Jack can't be summoned as Jack the Ripper in Apo, but that doesn't prevent a different aspect of Jack the Ripper from being summoned in the Apo timeline.

[pinetree]

Other than that Servants are defined as being copies of a Heroic Spirit. An entity can't be a Servant without the HS it's representing existing on the Throne of Heroes.

But they can. Even putting aside the Hassans, Divine Spirits and Phantoms can be Servants without being Heroic Spirits. Chaldea also has a lot of Servants that are either explicitly stated or hinted to not be in the Throne like Kerry, the Summer Servants, etc.

[castor212]

桜「はい、その通り正しいです。より正確に言うと、ムーンセルが記録している人類史からの完全 再現となりま す。ただし、この人類史は仮言的に英霊の座と繋がっているので、一概にコピーとは言えません。 要するに、ム ーンセルも自分で人類史を作っている認識なのですが、その人類史はそもそも英霊の座とまったく 同じものなの で、同一存在として仮言的には重なり合っている、みたいな感じです。

Quote above is saying that the human history is tentatively linked up to the Tjrone of Heroes

Summoning from Moon Cell history record had always meant summoning from Throne.

It also said Throne of Heroes is completely the same as the humanhistory record in MoonCell. Like, completely, literally, mattaku the same.

[fumei]

How much clearer can it get than a literal Q&A saying they're the same? Jesus christ...

[Deathhappens]

How much clearer can it get than a literal Q&A saying they're the same? Jesus christ...

Except for the part where one is a subset of the other. Which, unless my mathematics fail me, means they can't be the same no matter how much you stretch them.

[castor212]

One is not subset of the other.

その人類史はそもそも英霊の座とまったく 同じもの
That human history is to begin with, the very same thing as the throne of heroes.

Throne of heroes IS human history record.

[Lily Emilio]

TIL that "completely the same" means "not the same".

[yokushi]

Stripper loli Jack can't be summoned as Jack the Ripper in Apo, but that doesn't prevent a different aspect of Jack the Ripper from being summoned in the Apo timeline.

Yeah I know, it's just weird for such a distinction to happen because of the way she died.

[Trubo]

But they can. Even putting aside the Hassans, Divine Spirits and Phantoms can be Servants without being Heroic Spirits. Chaldea also has a lot of Servants that are either explicitly stated or hinted to not be in the Throne like Kerry, the Summer Servants, etc.

I don't remember there being a clause that Divine Spirits can't be Heroic Spirits. Throne of Gods and Throne of Heroes are separate records, but there has to be some overlap given cases like Herakles and the various Indian HS. The Summer Servants are just alterations to the existing HS either because of direct modifications to the Saint Graph or their appearance changing and emphasizing a different aspect that the HS had, so I don't really see the problem there.

As for Kiritsugu, I thought it was that normally he'd never be summoned as a CG, and thus would never be a HS. However, Zero event singularity happened, so he did get summoned as a CG, which makes him a HS. Chaldea's record of him then leads to him being recorded in the Throne of Heroes. Doesn't mean that he can ever be summoned in a non-FGO manner though.

[fumei]

Yeah I know, it's just weird for such a distinction to happen because of the way she died.

Tbh it's easier to grasp if you try to not think of the throne as "constant" and "one and the same across all timelines", even though it's outside of space and time, and more like that wiki-page analogy, where based on the timeline you get different snapshots of versions of a "page", and some pages may be "locked" based on circumstances etc.

[castor212]

.

As for Kiritsugu, I thought it was that normally he'd never be summoned as a CG, and thus would never be a HS. However, Zero event singularity happened, so he did get summoned as a CG, which makes him a HS. Chaldea's record of him then leads to him being recorded in the Throne of Heroes.

He is specif9cally said to not be in the throne at all.

Hes probably only on Chaldea record.

[Trubo]

Wouldn't that cause a weird contradiction though? Chaldea's records would be an aspect of humanity's records/history.

[castor212]

Dunno

Thats what it said on mats

My headcanon is that record of Servant Kerry =/= Hero Kerry but thats me

[Mcjon01]

Except for the part where one is a subset of the other. Which, unless my mathematics fail me, means they can't be the same no matter how much you stretch them.

“This new fact challenges my assumptions? BULLSHIT, I AM THE ROCK IN AN UNSTEADY UNIVERSE”

[Trubo]

Hrm, I was taking it more as normally a HS has to have some timeline backing up its existence, and singularities wouldn't count for that. However, because Chaldea recorded it, it would have to get added when Chaldea returns everything back to normal since the record still exists.

[castor212]

Yeah kerry mats is kinda weird

[Deathhappens]

“This new fact challenges my assumptions? BULLSHIT, I AM THE ROCK IN AN UNSTEADY UNIVERSE”

What new fact? The Throne records Heroes, the Moon Cell records Heroes and everyone else besides. One is bigger than the other. Which fact have I overlooked, exactly?