Create-A-Servant 2

[Adlet]

And the whole mess with Sakura just makes it worse.

But that's mostly because of Zouken's influence on him driving him into eventual insanity and developing an inferiority complex. Even Shirou noted that Shinji was strange during the HGW. In the days prior to HGW, it's noted that Shinji often helped out Shirou and as a child, he was more or less Sakura's only friend. iirc it's even said somewhere that Sakura and him went back to their normal relationship after Zouken got killed by Gilgamesh in UBW which is further depicted in the anime scene of Sakura feeding Shinji with apples in the hospital. He did commit a lot of horrible shit during the HGW under the pressure of Zouken, but it's not like he's a horrible person. I'd say Medusa's comparison of him with Perseus seems to imply that Shinji would have committed heroic acts if he wasn't born as a failure as he was and had more power - which seems to be true since he's not a failure in CCC. If I had to align him, I'd make him Chaotic Good.

[RoydGolden]

.......

I can't believe this is serious.

Who pitched the idea for Shinji to go from 'sister-raper, total asshole Extraordinare' to 'heroic sacrifice'?

Again, it's not the same Shinji technically (it's not like this one actually raped Sakura or even likely had a Sakura figure in their life). But more importantly, given how easily forgiven he is in certain materials (even Hollow Ataraxia paints him as more a joke then anything) I can believe Nasu actually intended Shinji to come off as a sympathetic, though fatally flawed character. At least in the first two routes, anyway.

I think the scope of his abuse in Heaven's Feel was something that may've been shoehorned in to ramp up the ~suffering~ for Sakura and make her seem more like a tragic heroine (as if she wasn't enough so already). Another reason some peeps say that HF is poorly thought out, since almost the entire route is engineered to make things as horrible as possible for Sakura until the very end, to the point of possibly even derailing certain characterizations that Nasu envisioned (like Shinji who ends up almost a cartoon villain in that route). Not sure, but I wonder. It'd make the 'Shinji = everyman' comment a little less baffling (and disturbing).

[4score7years]

he still has a really punchable face tho

[WhatShouldNotBe]

JoJo in Extra CCC

Gilgamesh :: Hn. So we’re indeed in the more difficult position here. Alter Ego with your drain skill. How many levels have you sucked up?
Meltlilith :: He — ahahahahaha! You ask that? To me? Do you remember the design, brand, and calorie count of every dessert you’ve ever had?

Heh.

He is everyman.

But that's mostly because of Zouken's influence on him driving him into eventual insanity and developing an inferiority complex. Even Shirou noted that Shinji was strange during the HGW. In the days prior to HGW, it's noted that Shinji often helped out Shirou and as a child, he was more or less Sakura's only friend. iirc it's even said somewhere that Sakura and him went back to their normal relationship after Zouken got killed by Gilgamesh in UBW which is further depicted in the anime scene of Sakura feeding Shinji with apples in the hospital. He did commit a lot of horrible shit during the HGW under the pressure of Zouken, but it's not like he's a horrible person. I'd say Medusa's comparison of him with Perseus seems to imply that Shinji would have committed heroic acts if he wasn't born as a failure as he was and had more power - which seems to be true since he's not a failure in CCC. If I had to align him, I'd make him Chaotic Good.

Well, I guess if you took a normal guy and had him be raised by WormMaster the Scumbag, I suppose it would make a bit more sense for him to come out that way...
And Gilgamesh is apparently Chaotic Good as well, so there's precedent for that kind of personality alignment.

[Lily Emilio]

Point is he did what he did because of ABCXYZ reasons that influenced him. It's not that he was born a rapist.

[RoydGolden]

Point is he did what he did because of ABCXYZ reasons that influenced him. It's not that he was born a rapist.

No, but that's presumably true for everybody. Given the deeds he actually did in life, I'd have a hard time not calling him evil at that point.

[WhatShouldNotBe]

Again, it's not the same Shinji technically (it's not like this one actually raped Sakura or even likely had a Sakura figure in their life). But more importantly, given how easily forgiven he is in certain materials (even Hollow Ataraxia paints him as more a joke then anything) I can believe Nasu actually intended Shinji to come off as a sympathetic, though fatally flawed character. At least in the first two routes, anyway.

I think the scope of his abuse in Heaven's Feel was something that may've been shoehorned in to ramp up the ~suffering~ for Sakura and make her seem more like a tragic heroine (as if she wasn't enough so already). Another reason some peeps say that HF is poorly thought out, since almost the entire route is engineered to make things as horrible as possible for Sakura until the very end, to the point of possibly even derailing certain characterizations that Nasu envisioned (like Shinji who ends up almost a cartoon villain in that route). Not sure, but I wonder. It'd make the 'Shinji = everyman' comment a little less baffling (and disturbing).

Ah, the Routes being really different in backstory was something I kinda forgot about. Assuming that Heaven's Feel route is basically 'Make Sakura Sad: The Route', and thus ignoring the backstory given by that route.... yeah, I can see SHinji being not that bad of a guy.

[Adlet]

And Gilgamesh is apparently Chaotic Good as well, so there's precedent for that kind of personality alignment.

Depends on how you look at it. Gilgamesh is considered a villain only in modern era. He was quite the hero during his days because he was inspired by the people's compassion. Babylon kind of shows really well that Gilgamesh is a heroic individual, even if he's extremely lacking in morality.

Point is he did what he did because of ABCXYZ reasons that influenced him. It's not that he was born a rapist.

Plus you'd kinda have to consider that Magi in general aren't really raised to be very moral. Even Rin was hesitating to save Sakura because of her Magi side, and she was raised under a presumably loving father and mother unlike Shinji who was abandoned by his father - who instead focused on Sakura then - and was constantly pressured/devalued by Zouken.

It's kind of like Jason being a really selfish guy, but his wish is to create an utopia for everyone (even if he wants to be king of that utopia).

[Lily Emilio]

No, but that's presumably true for everybody.

That's why he is everyman.

[RoydGolden]

Ah, the Routes being really different in backstory was something I kinda forgot about. Assuming that Heaven's Feel route is basically 'Make Sakura Sad: The Route', and thus ignoring the backstory given by that route.... yeah, I can see SHinji being not that bad of a guy.

Yeah. Without Heaven's Feel, Shinji is really just a petty jerk and I could easily see him getting redeemed without too much trouble (though even then there's a brief implication that he maybe hits Sakura, but it's only mentioned once and then mostly forgotten about). With it though, he's an outright monster and I couldn't see him being forgiven without a long, arduous road of repentance. I prefer to think of the routes as separate, since imagining Sakura getting raped by worms all day in the background kind of spoils the endings of the first two.

[WhatShouldNotBe]

Yeah. Without Heaven's Feel, Shinji is really just a petty jerk and I could easily see him getting redeemed without too much trouble (though even then there's a brief implication that he maybe hits Sakura, but it's only mentioned once and then mostly forgotten about). With it though, he's an outright monster and I couldn't see him being forgiven without a long, arduous road of repentance. I prefer to think of the routes as separate, since imagining Sakura getting raped by worms all day in the background kind of spoils the endings of the first two.

So TL;DR: Shinji is just your average petty jerk if you ignore HF.

[RoydGolden]

That's why he is everyman.

...And everyman (every man) holds the potential to become a villain, right? Fair enough.

It still seems sort of odd to call him an 'everyman' at that point, though. I mean, the term is like Tabula Rasa. Shinji was once normal and just like everybody else (insofar as anybody is), but by the time he's indoctrinated in the philosophy of uncle rapeworm and starts horribly abusing his sister I think he's far beyond the point of being called an 'everyday guy'.

- - - Updated - - -

So TL;DR: Shinji is just your average petty jerk if you ignore HF.

Yeah, pretty much.

[WhatShouldNotBe]

...And everyman (every man) holds the potential to become a villain, right? Fair enough.

It still seems sort of odd to call him an 'everyman' at that point, though. I mean, the term is like Tabula Rasa. Shinji was once normal and just like everybody else (insofar as anybody is), but by the time he's indoctrinated in the philosophy of uncle rapeworm and starts horribly abusing his sister I think he's far beyond the point of being called an 'everyday guy'.

- - - Updated - - -



Yeah, pretty much.

Isn't it Grandpa Rapeworm , not Uncle Rapeworm?

[RoydGolden]

Isn't it Grandpa Rapeworm , not Uncle Rapeworm?

Yeah, okay. Got that confused.

[Seika]

So TL;DR: Shinji is just your average petty jerk if you ignore HF.

[Historia]

.

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[RoydGolden]

Seika: Which route was that from, out of curiosity? And in fact, now that I really think about it, Shinji was far from an everyday jerk even in the first two routes. He was willing to have Medusa drain people unto death and to activate the Blood Fort in the school, which surely killed or at least crippled a whole bunch of people while showing absolutely no remorse.

However, at least in that case you can more genuinely state that the Grail War was driving him crazy, whereas the stuff with Sakura had been going on long before it even started.

[Historia]

Seika: Which route was that from, out of curiosity?

Hint: Tohsaka's anus.

[You]

Seika: Which route was that from, out of curiosity? And in fact, now that I really think about it, Shinji was far from an everyday jerk even in the first two routes. He was willing to have Medusa drain people unto death and to activate the Blood Fort in the school, which surely killed or at least crippled a whole bunch of people while showing absolutely no remorse.

However, at least in that case you can more genuinely state that the Grail War was driving him crazy, whereas the stuff with Sakura had been going on long before it even started.

http://blogs.nrvnqsr.com/entry.php/3...owers-activate

[RoydGolden]

http://blogs.nrvnqsr.com/entry.php/3...owers-activate

Is that link intended for me? It doesn't seem to work.