Things that annoy you in TM

[Mattias]

I’ll make it simpler: if your country on the American continent isn’t part of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, the greatest, best country God has ever given man on the face of the Earth, you are South American.

So if Canada is South America and to the north of you, does that make the US double South America?

[Sandstorm77]

The consequences are completely gone if everything is just erased at the end. I don't like the idea of this new thing having some "matter of fact" effect on a finished story that I like in anyway.

It’s not the consequences are being erased, being erased IS the consequence. The action isn’t negated. They destroyed the world and can’t continoue, so the system ignores it from then on. What do you want? ‘And then the world remain destroyed forever’?

[Menwearpink]

I mean if you dislike it, then I guess you should like root for a Lostbelt.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

Can't say that I agree with that. Overlooking View and Oblivion Recorder aside, the other 5 movies were all solid in their own ways. Hell, almost the entirety of the 2 hours runtime of KnK 7 was spent on Shiki and Kokutou's relationship and it didn't have some over-dramatic revelation or shocking twist like in Fate/Zero or their UBW series but it was something more slow and carefully delivered.

I didn't say all of KnK was bad, and 7 is one of the better ones, as is 5, but still the characters are more devices for the philosophy as opposed to the other way round as is the case in Zero and UBW IMO. In any case, I like the revelations of Zero and UBW, so...

[Menwearpink]

I feel like Fate/Zero is the nasu work that's in the top 3 of worst at handling its characters, personally.

[Dullahan]

>I feel like Fate/Zero is the nasu work

>Fate/Zero
>the nasu work

[Menwearpink]

Nasuverse work.

I suppose I should say Type Moon work?

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

I feel like Fate/Zero is the nasu work that's in the top 3 of handling its characters, personally.

Definitely would agree with that.

[Menwearpink]

wow I only just realized that my forum post got fucked up.

It's suppose to say top 3 at being the worst of its handling of its characters.

This is not my day.

[fumei]

The consequences are completely gone if everything is just erased at the end. I don't like the idea of this new thing having some "matter of fact" effect on a finished story that I like in anyway.

What people are trying to argue here is:

1) No pruning system: The bad guy's goal is to totally destroy the world (as is typical of pure villain antagonists in fantasy stories). The planet, and every living being on it, will be wiped out if he succeeds. Nothing remains. In the end, he accomplishes his goal, everything is destroyed. The overall world remains "existant", but everything you knew of it is gone, it's just a void now.

2) Pruning system: The bad guy's goal is to totally destroy the world. Same as scenario 1). But in the end, if he accomplishes his goal, when the next QTL comes around (100 year periods) then the timeline will be pruned. So now he succeeds, the entire world is wiped out along with all life. The overall world exists in the form of the same "void" as in scenario 1), but when the QTL comes around, this world where nothing exists anymore is now erased altogether.

You're arguing that 1) is so much more impactful and somehow has more consequences than 2). They both go through the exact same thing, it's just that in the end when there's no more to get out of the world, 2) deletes it.

[GarlandGreene]

but still the characters are more devices for the philosophy as opposed to the other way round as is the case in Zero and UBW IMO. In any case, I like the revelations of Zero and UBW, so...

That's odd since that's exactly the kind of problems I had with Urobuchi's works, the fact that his characters tend to behave more like concepts that served as mouthpieces for his philosophical views rather than coming off as living, breathing people. And unfortunately, Fate/Zero wasn't an exception to that.

[Dullahan]

characters being mouthpieces for philosophical views is good, actually

[Deathhappens]

What people are trying to argue here is:

1) No pruning system: The bad guy's goal is to totally destroy the world (as is typical of pure villain antagonists in fantasy stories). The planet, and every living being on it, will be wiped out if he succeeds. Nothing remains. In the end, he accomplishes his goal, everything is destroyed. The overall world remains "existant", but everything you knew of it is gone, it's just a void now.

2) Pruning system: The bad guy's goal is to totally destroy the world. Same as scenario 1). But in the end, if he accomplishes his goal, when the next QTL comes around (100 year periods) then the timeline will be pruned. So now he succeeds, the entire world is wiped out along with all life. The overall world exists in the form of the same "void" as in scenario 1), but when the QTL comes around, this world where nothing exists anymore is now erased altogether.

You're arguing that 1) is so much more impactful and somehow has more consequences than 2). They both go through the exact same thing, it's just that in the end when there's no more to get out of the world, 2) deletes it.

But that's not what happens. Bad guy wins= total cataclysmic annihilation only occurs in FGO's story really, in which case yeah, a cosmic RetGone on top of that doesn't really change much. But Kirei or Amakusa or even Twice succeeding does leave something further to build on. Heck, even Velber sending a second White Titan wouldn't instantly annihilate everyone. You could build a good eschatological story dealing with the last few (unknowingly doomed or not) survivors.

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characters being mouthpieces for philosophical views is good, actually

How do you figure that?

[pinetree]

Kirei was going to kill everyone.

And Amakusa doesn't leave room to build on either, that's the whole deal with his plan, the "downside" is that he's skipping to the end of human advancement, there's no more future after that.

[Dullahan]

why would it not be good?

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

It's better if it's the other way round, that is the philosophical views boost/underpin characters. I get the distinction may get kinda murky.

[fumei]

But that's not what happens. Bad guy wins= total cataclysmic annihilation only occurs in FGO's story really, in which case yeah, a cosmic RetGone on top of that doesn't really change much. But Kirei or Amakusa or even Twice succeeding does leave something further to build on. Heck, even Velber sending a second White Titan wouldn't instantly annihilate everyone. You could build a good eschatological story dealing with the last few (unknowingly doomed or not) survivors.

It's an example, not every case of pruning explained. But so far, most big bad plans that would've resulted in pruning if they succeeded fits within this example.

Besides, what you're arguing is pretty moot, considering that we already have stories that are pruned phenomena, in case you forgot. So I don't know what the big deal about "they can't ever write the continuation" is.

[Sandstorm77]

But that's not what happens. Bad guy wins= total cataclysmic annihilation only occurs in FGO's story really, in which case yeah, a cosmic RetGone on top of that doesn't really change much. But Kirei or Amakusa or even Twice succeeding does leave something further to build on. Heck, even Velber sending a second White Titan wouldn't instantly annihilate everyone. You could build a good eschatological story dealing with the last few (unknowingly doomed or not) survivors.

Then if the world still have a possibility to move forward then it will continue, simple. Thought kirei and amakusa’s are oretty much a definite end if they accomplish it. You make it sound like the worlds get pruned the second any bad guys wins or something, it just means it won’t be given the energy to continue after the next QTL.

[Deathhappens]

I don't really care either way, I was arguing in favor of the original position that adding new stuff, like Quantum Timelocks, that ex post facto alter the conclusion of older stories is in itself a bad thing.

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why would it not be good?

You tell me, you're the one making a assertion. I was just asking for the rationale behind it.

[Sandstorm77]

I don't really care either way, I was arguing in favor of the original position that adding new stuff, like Quantum Timelocks, that ex post facto alter the conclusion of older stories is in itself a bad thing.

And how do QTL alter the conclusion of past stories?