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Thread: Things that annoy you in TM

  1. #4121
    don't look at the ears Marmadillo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    No, the distinction is very much pertinent and even important to separate. Translation itself is not actually difficult per se so much as time-consuming. A machine can translate for you, too. Which Google Translate will do. But actually interpreting what is being said beyond the literal and localizing it is very much a different beast. A good translator may do both.
    Put almost any logographic text through google and you will often get something that no one will call a translation. Translation conveys meaning, so it is inherently interpretative. So the distinction does not exist as you describe here. It's simply the difference in the difficulty of the text you need to convey.
    Of course I don't disagree about differentiating translation from localization.
    Last edited by Marmadillo; May 24th, 2018 at 08:57 AM.

  2. #4122
    BORN TO REJOICE Walnut Sparks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpoonyViking View Post
    In the specific context of the relationship between Kenshin and Shishio, yes.
    Well, that's good for Portuguese.
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  3. #4123
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six SpoonyViking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walnut Sparks View Post
    Well, that's good for Portuguese.
    Their solution would also work for English, actually.
    As a matter of fact, I really doubt there's a single language for which it wouldn't work.
    My fanfics:
    The Gift (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot)
    - A duel between Cú Chulainn and Scáthach.
    Passion Acknowledged (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot) (Lemon) - Shirou and Shinji finally acknowledge their feelings.
    He Was a Good King (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot) - A short exploration of Beowulf's character as a hero and a king.

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    BORN TO REJOICE Walnut Sparks's Avatar
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    How would it work in English? I can't think of any words in normal usage that would convey the same relationship. Senior and junior don't cut it. And I ask again, what is the problem with just acknowledging the existence of a cultural aspect in a foreign work which is not part of one's own culture?
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  5. #4125
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six SpoonyViking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walnut Sparks View Post
    How would it work in English?
    Predecessor and successor. Which is the relationship between Kenshin and Shishio.
    Honestly, I'm not a Japanese speaker, but I seriously doubt senpai and kohai are as inherently difficult to translate as you're making them out to be.

    And I ask again, what is the problem with just acknowledging the existence of a cultural aspect in a foreign work which is not part of one's own culture?
    If it's something intrinsic to the work, like - off the top of my head - "Lone Wolf and Cub" 's constant reference to Meifumadou, sure, acknowledge away! But why would you need to leave in senpai and kohai when it's just a linguistic quirk of the Japanese language to constantly use honorifics? If you're trying to translate the experience* and it's something for which native Japanese speakers would have no need of additional explanations, why would you burden your target audience's reading experience with something that isn't required to comprehend the work at all?

    * Admittedly, that isn't the intent of all translations, but it's the approach I chose and favour.
    My fanfics:
    The Gift (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot)
    - A duel between Cú Chulainn and Scáthach.
    Passion Acknowledged (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot) (Lemon) - Shirou and Shinji finally acknowledge their feelings.
    He Was a Good King (a Fate/Stay Night one-shot) - A short exploration of Beowulf's character as a hero and a king.

  6. #4126
    Dullahan's Avatar
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    Communication is a priori impossible, we should translate nothing in order to maroon the audience in a limitless melange of free-floating signifiers
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  7. #4127
    Εις οιωνός άριστος, αμύνεσθαι περί πάτρις Deathhappens's Avatar
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    I just got cringe flashbacks of Persona 4 and Nanako's sickly sweet voice calling Yu "big bro". Thanks.

    EDIT: I accidentally a few pages.

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    BORN TO REJOICE Walnut Sparks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpoonyViking View Post
    Honestly, I'm not a Japanese speaker, but I seriously doubt senpai and kohai are as inherently difficult to translate as you're making them out to be.
    I'm not gonna pretend to be either, but I am going by what I've read and how I've seen the terms used. Predecessor and successor in English don't imply a relationship (and yes, I know that senpai and kouhai don't always denote a relationship either, but going by the basic definitions I've read, they broadly do). Actually, in general the closest terms I can find are mentor and protege, but even that wouldn't quite describe, say, Shirou and Sakura.

    Let me get to the rest later.
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  9. #4129
    Εις οιωνός άριστος, αμύνεσθαι περί πάτρις Deathhappens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walnut Sparks View Post
    I'm not gonna pretend to be either, but I am going by what I've read and how I've seen the terms used. Predecessor and successor in English don't imply a relationship (and yes, I know that senpai and kouhai don't always denote a relationship either, but going by the basic definitions I've read, they broadly do). Actually, in general the closest terms I can find are mentor and protege, but even that wouldn't quite describe, say, Shirou and Sakura.

    Let me get to the rest later.
    Like most honorifics, it's a cultural divide thing. Japanese society places an emphasis on status and senior/junior relationships that just doesn't map well into modern-era English. So you're left with either the choice of translating by context (and get accused of altering the original) or leaving them untranslated (and get called lazy). And that's not even an option at all when doing professional work.

    EDIT:Most of the time, at least. F/GO did at least that much right by leaving Mash's senpais untranslated.
    Last edited by Deathhappens; May 24th, 2018 at 11:35 AM.

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    BORN TO REJOICE Walnut Sparks's Avatar
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    I think my point is this: You can either assume that the audience understands the nature of the relationship, or assume they don't. If the latter, then whether you use the term untranslated, find a word in your own language to swap for it, or avoid including it directly, then you have to explain the cultural difference somehow, and if that's the case, then I don't think substituting, say, "senior" and "junior" in a school context, is significantly better. It still means footnotes or rewriting.

    I suppose part of it comes down to the reader's preference. I prefer to trust that the translation I'm reading is reasonably close to the original, even if that means having to refer to footnotes to understand it. I don't find that too much of a burden or necessarily assume that untranslated words are due to laziness.
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  11. #4131
    Εις οιωνός άριστος, αμύνεσθαι περί πάτρις Deathhappens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walnut Sparks View Post
    I think my point is this: You can either assume that the audience understands the nature of the relationship, or assume they don't. If the latter, then whether you use the term untranslated, find a word in your own language to swap for it, or avoid including it directly, then you have to explain the cultural difference somehow, and if that's the case, then I don't think substituting, say, "senior" and "junior" in a school context, is significantly better. It still means footnotes or rewriting.

    I suppose part of it comes down to the reader's preference. I prefer to trust that the translation I'm reading is reasonably close to the original, even if that means having to refer to footnotes to understand it. I don't find that too much of a burden or necessarily assume that untranslated words are due to laziness.
    That's another part of the "professional/non-professional" scale in translation, though. One of the first things hammered into you when studying translation is that you assume nothing about your audience, and your finished product must convey the original's meaning to someone without any benefit of context. On the other hand, when translating, say, an obscure manga-spinoff of a niche title that only a hundred people have heard of, you have the liberty to assume your intended audience has a certain grounding in the culture and universe the franchise are built around. So, to return to the initial argument, you can safely leave your "senpai's" untranslated, or trust the audience to understand the joke when someone bops someone else over the head with a paper fan without either a lengthy TL Note or changing the fan into a bat.

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    Sleeping in the Akasha... Riku Noctis's Avatar
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    One thing that annoys me is that whenever I see the forum banner with Lorelei I'm reminded that we'll probably never see her in one of TM's works. She would probably be the equivalent of our awesome ojou Luvia, being more serious but cuter in the end once her character develops (obviously not immune to the Tohno Gland™).

    Well, this annoys me with various characters that now seem forgotten. Fucking mushroom...


    Actually, I think the banners are to blame. :P




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    そうじゃろそうじゃろ Canon's Avatar
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    Sleeping in the Akasha... Riku Noctis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canon View Post
    Default Style is your friend
    Sometimes I think I should change it, but then I'm reminded that I also like to see Lorelei in the banner.

    This is a vicious loop. Just like the gacha...




    Quote Originally Posted by Cyber Angel View Post
    "Time to start learning Japanese."
    Five timeless words. ;.;

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    Εις οιωνός άριστος, αμύνεσθαι περί πάτρις Deathhappens's Avatar
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    Probably retreading ground so trodden over as to be virtually rock-solid here, but as I got the funny idea to show a non-fan friend of mine my FGO Servants and make him guess who was who, it struck me once again how far we've gotten from the original "summoned legendary heroes" tagline. I mean, sure, I have Francis Drake and Rameses II... but also Frankenstein's Monster, three OCs from other works of the franchise, a bunch of "alternate form of the same guy"...
    Quote Originally Posted by I3uster View Post
    It's like with centaur girls, you're fucking a horse. Sure the human part is the one that moans but your dick is in the horse, no way around it.

    Once and always and nevermore.

  16. #4136
    Preformance Pertension SeiKeo's Avatar
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    Hmm, Grand Order, you think, maybe.... hmmm....
    Quote Originally Posted by asterism42 View Post
    That time they checked out that hot guy they were just admiring his watch, yeah?


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    Εις οιωνός άριστος, αμύνεσθαι περί πάτρις Deathhappens's Avatar
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    I (privately, most of the time) think GO was the final catalyst of the franchise's declaration of artistic bankruptcy, but it's far from the first offender. There's just too much Fate/ going around.
    Quote Originally Posted by I3uster View Post
    It's like with centaur girls, you're fucking a horse. Sure the human part is the one that moans but your dick is in the horse, no way around it.

    Once and always and nevermore.

  18. #4138
    Knight of 'Sumanai' Iceblade44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Probably retreading ground so trodden over as to be virtually rock-solid here, but as I got the funny idea to show a non-fan friend of mine my FGO Servants and make him guess who was who, it struck me once again how far we've gotten from the original "summoned legendary heroes" tagline. I mean, sure, I have Francis Drake and Rameses II... but also Frankenstein's Monster, three OCs from other works of the franchise, a bunch of "alternate form of the same guy"...
    That tagline crumbled long ago when Emiya became a thing, and that means at the very start. (Though the original Prototype was more in line to It, but we didn't go down that route)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    I (privately, most of the time) think GO was the final catalyst of the franchise's declaration of artistic bankruptcy, but it's far from the first offender. There's just too much Fate/ going around.
    The first offender was making King Arthur a girl.
    "Only in my company, will you not be a monster"


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  19. #4139
    全力後輩 - Zenryoku Kohai Altima of the Gates's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    I (privately, most of the time) think GO was the final catalyst of the franchise's declaration of artistic bankruptcy, but it's far from the first offender. There's just too much Fate/ going around.
    Fate is also what really let them take off in a Marvel-esque type of way. Honestly though, there is just more "potential" in Fate than in the other franchises imo. Tsukihime was made to be a narratively closed off more intimate story, and the characters don't really have many far reaching goals or aspirations like the Fate ones do, so they end up not being able to have long running threads to pull. Maybe if by some miracle DDD gets an anime, but good luck with that. KnK...I don't really know where else they can take it. So Fate, and it's many, many spinoffs have the staying power and story hooks to go a long, long time.



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    Εις οιωνός άριστος, αμύνεσθαι περί πάτρις Deathhappens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceblade44 View Post



    The first offender was making King Arthur a girl.
    That's not actually my complaint, exactly. It's not just about historical accuracy. Genderbending King Arthur or bringing a Hero from the future instead of the past were exceptions to the "rule" about heroes, but they worked because by the very fact of them being exceptions they told an interesting story. But either because later additions didn't "get the memo" or just as a direct consequence of padding the roster, the exceptions came to outnumber the rule by orders of magnitude.
    Quote Originally Posted by I3uster View Post
    It's like with centaur girls, you're fucking a horse. Sure the human part is the one that moans but your dick is in the horse, no way around it.

    Once and always and nevermore.

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