Night of the TATARI: Wild Mass Guessing and What if's?

[Vagrant]

And before him came Enmerkar. And before him, Etapa. And before him, Adapa. And before him some caveman painted on the side of a cave. And before him some Neanderthal depicted as a stick figure ideogram on a wooden log. And before him an Australopithicus legend conveyed through precise hand gestures and modulated hooting. The idea of "oldest hero" is a treacherous and shakey one at best.

Gil is simply well known as far as truly ancient human hero tales go, while still being obscure enough to be a surprise that can murderise Herakles, while still having an interesting story to tell, while fitting in well thematically for the role he needed to play at the time.

[Ereus]

I just dispute gil at this point for being called that and somehow getting extra shit added to his gate every few years, first it was prototypes not its conceptual protoypes, the entire tech tree of humanity.
Can't wait for him to have reality marbles in there.
Oh and sha nagba.

[Vagrant]

Do you get this mad about Saber and her constant additions? Because if anyone is justified for having power creep over the years it's Gil, given that he is the undisputed Strongest Servant.

[Ereus]

Do you get this mad about Saber and her constant additions? Because if anyone is justified for having power creep over the years it's Gil, given that he is the undisputed Strongest Servant.

I do at times yes.

[mewarmo990]

If you're complaining about Gil being called the oldest when historically he definitely wasn't, Nasu is aware of it and even addressed it.

They just picked him for the name recognition.

[Ereus]

In that magazine correct?
I feel like friggen Ravana or someone been better for it.
I just hate they went with the logic or 'this guy is one of the oldest so he is the origin of NPs, it cant be a np without it having a origin in the vault' deal.

[RoydGolden]

In that magazine correct?
I feel like friggen Ravana or someone been better for it.
I just hate they went with the logic or 'this guy is one of the oldest so he is the origin of NPs, it cant be a np without it having a origin in the vault' deal.

It wasn't just "the oldest hero so he has all the NPs", but also the legend of him being king of the world and owning all its treasures.

Don't know enough about Hindu myth to say whether anything similar could be said for Ravana.

[Ereus]

It wasn't just "the oldest hero so he has all the NPs", but also the legend of him being king of the world and owning all its treasures.

Don't know enough about Hindu myth to say whether anything similar could be said for Ravana.

Ravana was still rather OP, he was immune to any weapon made by god or demon IIRC hence why rama is human.
He fought the gods.
Was it ever said that he had all the treasures in the world in the original myth?
I cannot think of anyone that had that in any myth now that I think about it, I mean IIRC someone in the mahabarata conquered the world too.

[mewarmo990]

In that magazine correct?

no?

[You]

Surprised no one has talked about this

“It is only natural that you should be dubious.
The Age of Gods has long since passed, and this planet has already settled into the physical laws humans recognize today.

To humans, gods are merely the system used to found religions.
No doubt humans nowadays do not think it plausible for the system to associate with humans.

Not yet, that is.
But that is talk of the future.
You are asking of the past.

There are two types of gods.
Those pre-existing that became gods,
and those who were reborn as gods.

The gods of Mesopotamia were of the former category.
Natural phenomena that acquired will and personalities:
such were the gods of antiquity.

It was from one of them and a human king that I was created,
placing me in between the gods of antiquity and those of modernity.”

Gods of antiquity and gods of modernity, he said.

So the ancient gods are like those from nature worship, and existed on this planet to begin with,
whereas modern gods are systems occurring out of human perception and craft.

I see now why he would say he was “in between” the two.

If the gods of modernity are inventions of humanity,
it follows that, as one who was born between a god of antiquity and a human,
Gilgamesh would be an invention of the gods.

I've always wondered what type of modern god there is since we are never given concrete examples. But I think the Bunyan even gives an example of a modern god, which is Columbia and Uncle Sam also Columbia's prototype Libertas.
Columbia is a symbol of American nationalism as well as the personification of the country. It is definitely a system that is given form by humans. Something unlike the gods of antiquity, which sprouted from natural phenomenon.
Makes you wonder what other "modern" gods there are. Like other than national personifications. Santa Claus? Like does this mean modern gods are kinda like the modern gods in American Gods just less personification but more "need to have a widely accepted cultural image"?

Buyan event might be a joke event but we got a lot of MURICA lore out of it.

[Leftovers]

Question: How is ambient ether produced by the planet the same fake ether that was artificially created as a substitute to true ether?

Dullahan and You: It's the world texture laid over that of the other side and pinned down by Rhongobongo that is producing fake ether, courtesy of the first magic.

It Makes Sense

[aldeayeah]

So the human age texture filters/neuters the breath of the planet, and thus we get this lame modern stuff instead of the really

dangerous

good

stuff of yonder?

i guess

[Leftovers]

Servants, Dead Apostle Ancestors and the Division of Fate and Tsukihime Worlds: a Timeline


1: Fate/Strange Fake Volume 2 (2015)



「英霊とは人類史を肯定するモノ。人間世界の秩序（ルール）を護るものだ」
「我ら死徒は人類史を否定するモノ。君達のルールを汚すために存在してきた」

"Heroic Spirits affirm human history. They exist to preserve the order (the rules) of the human world. [...] We Dead Apostles deny human history. We exist to defile your rules."

2: Fate/Labyrinth (2015-2016)



「人理が命として脈動し、時に英霊なりし幻想と神秘を儀式によってサーヴァント等という形態で召喚し得る世 界にあって、人が変じた死の怪物（死徒）にさしたる力はない。人を襲い、命と血を喰らって長らえる吸血種が この人理脈動する世界に有り得るとすれば、それは幻想に属するものだ。神秘として顕れたるもの だ」

In a world where the

human order

law of humanity

beats like life and

Heroic Spirits

heroic phantasms and mysteries

are sometimes summoned in the form of Servants, the

Dead Apostles

monsters of death

that humans have transformed into have no special power. If a creature that lives off of consuming life and blood is possible in a world where the law of humanity pulsates, then it is a creature of phantasms. A creature that manifested as mystery.

(Rubytext additions are mine.)



奈須きのこさま。サーヴァントとたちによるダンジョン探索行というアイデアにOKをくださった上に、『Fa te』世界における○○と○○○の在り方やその詳細（幻想種としての○○○は力を有するものの、死徒は某作 品ほどには力を持てない等々───）についてご教授いただき、更にはご監修まで、本当にありがとうございま した。

Nasu Kinoko-sama. For teaching me about the state of [redacted] and [redacted] in Fate worlds and the relevant details (that although their [redacted] as phantasmal species grants them power, Dead Apostles cannot hold as much power as in a certain work, and so on──), in addition to approving the idea about exploring a dungeon with Servants as well as your oversight, I am truly thankful.

3. Melty Blood Back Alley Alliance Encyclopedia (2016)



真祖や他の死徒に吸血されて吸血鬼となった者のこと。吸血鬼と呼ばれるモノたちの大部分を占める。不老不死 に近い肉体をもつが、日光にあたることが出来ない。……その世界に生きる者たちには預かり知らぬことではあ るが、英霊召喚を可能とする世界において、死徒の頂点と言われる二十七祖は存在しない。

Dead Apostle

Those who have become vampires by having their blood sucked by True Ancestors or other Dead Apostles. Dead Apostles encompass most of the beings referred to as vampires. They possess bodies that are nearly immortal, but cannot withstand the light of the sun. ...The people living in those worlds would have no way of knowing this, but the Twenty-Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors, said to be the apex of the Dead Apostles, do not exist in worlds where Heroic Spirit summoning is possible.

4. Koha-Ace GO Dictionary (2016)



欧州使徒戦線1945【嘘予告】
沖田とノッブが真祖にボコボコにされる話。
え？Ｆａｔｅよりの世界だと二十七祖とか脳天気吸血姫はいない？気にするな！

European Dead Apostle War Theater (Advance Notice Lie)
A story where the True Ancestor curb stomps Okita and Nobu.
Eh? Worlds from Fate don't have the Twenty-Seven Ancestors or the happy-go-luck vampire princess? Nevermind then!

5. Bamboo Broom Diary (2017)



んで。その中で異彩を放つドラマＣＤですが、この場を借りてちょっとだけ補足を。
TYPE-MOONの伝奇……というか、奈須きのこがTYPE-MOONでやっている伝奇は『すべて同じ世界』と思われがちですが、それはあくまで基本であって大きく二つ の系統に分かれている事は今までちょろちょろ説明してきました。

　英霊がサーヴァントとして使役できるFate世界と、
　英霊なんて強大な概念を“自律した使い魔”なんて術式に落とし込めるワケねーだろ、という月姫世界ですね 。

Fate世界の下地は『人類史を肯定するもの』なので英霊も主役として考えられますが、
月姫世界の下地は『人類史を■■するもの』なので、その敵対者である死徒たちが主題となる、みたいな違いで す。

んで。月姫におけるある人物……教会において二十七祖の一人と数えられたもの……は『ある出会い』を経て強 力な死徒となります。
しかしFate世界ではそもそも『ある出会い』がないため、死徒になりこそすれど『祖のひとり』に数えられ るほどの力は持たず、その秘術も劣化したものとなります。
　そのあたりの差違……世界の土台は同じでも前提が異なる事で登場人物の在り方も異なる……を楽しんでいた だければこれ幸い。

The Romantic fiction of Typemoon or rather the Romantic fiction that Nasu Kinoko is writing for Typemoon is often thought as "all in the same world," but it is fundamentally separated into two large groups that I have only hinted at.
There are the Fate worlds where Heroic Spirits are used a Servants and Tsukihime worlds where, dude, there's no way a mighty concept like a Heroic Spirit can be squeezed into an "autonomous familiar."
The difference is that the groundwork for Fate worlds thought of as "things that affirm human history" so Servants playing the leading roles; whereas the groundwork for Tsukihime worlds are "things that ■■ human history" so the leading role is played by the antagonists, Dead Apostles.
Therefore, in regards to a character in Tsukihime... the one the Church counts as part of the twenty seven ancestors.... became a powerful Dead Apostle after "an encounter."
However, in the Fate World, this "encounter" never happened in the first place, so while he became a Dead Apostle he never obtained the same level of power as the "one who was counted as an ancestor" and his mystery was deteoriated.
With these differences... the basis of the world is the same but the conditions are different so the characters are also different... I'm happy if you liked it.

summary of some Good Stuff to keep in mind
-People say all my stories take place in the same world but that's only true at the basic level, they're technically split into two
-Fate world: heroic spirits can be used as Servants; it's based in the affirmation of human history so heroic spirits are at the center of the story
-Tsuki world: "lmao, as if you could ever reduce a concept as powerful as heroic spirits to something like an autonomous familiar"; it's based in the [redacted] of human history so dead apostles (its antithesis) are at the center of the story

A certain someone from Tsukihime, someone who is counted as one of the 27 ancestors by the church, became a powerful dead apostle through "a certain meeting".
In the Fate world, this meeting doesn't happen, so though this person does become a dead apostle, they won't have as much power to be counted as one of the ancestors, and their mystery is inferior too.
Please enjoy those differences, how the base for the world is the same, but with different premises, characters exist differently.

6. Case Files Volume 6 (2017)



「そうだね。かつての演算結果のひとつを紐解くなら……場合によっては、彼 (ブラックモア) は私 の同胞になっていたかもしれない」
「同胞？千年だか二千年だか前の死徒が？」
「ああ、その場合、数としては二十を超えたろうかね。あくまで可能性としてそうなりえたというだけなんだが 、私にとってはそれなりに縁のある場所だ。もっとも、ブラックモアと同胞になる可能性は、私が生まれるより 以前────いくつかありえた枝の最後でも、いまから千七百年近くも前に摘まれているがね」

"That's right. If I unravel one of my past calculations...depending on the circumstances, he (Blackmore) might have become my comrade."
"Your comrade? A Dead Apostle from one or two thousand years ago?"
"Ah, in those circumstances the number would have been more than twenty. Even though it's only a possibility of what could have been, for me a connection exists even through just that. Although, before I was born, the possibility of becoming comrades with Blackmore was───like the end of several possible branches, it was cut off nearly 1700 years ago."



きのこ「あ、実はね。Fate世界では二十七祖は二十七祖になってないから」
ライター陣「…………！！！！！？？？？」（全員硬直＆何を言われてるか分からない）
きのこ「二十七祖が二十七祖たりえるのは月姫を基幹にする世界だけなんじゃ。逆に月姫世界にはサーヴァント なんてとんでも使い魔おらんじゃろ？」
三田「コンマテーっ!?」
きのこ「それは人理焼却によって焚書になった。そうそう、成田さんのFakeは気にしなくてよい。二つの中 間にある特殊領域だし」
成田「あ、あ、はい。あ、ありがとうございあｍすｓ……ｔ？」
きのこ「でも三田さんの事件簿は準拠してね。話すと長くなるけど、月姫Ｒだとこのへんは……」

Kinoko: Actually, the twenty-seven Ancestors didn’t become the twenty-seven Ancestors in the Fate universe.

Authors: ……………!!!!???? (All freeze, speechless)

Kinoko: Only the Tsukihime universe allows for them to become the twenty-seven Ancestors. On that note, doesn’t Tsukihime not have the sort of extremely powerful familiars like Servants?

Sanda: What about CM—!?

Kinoko: That thing gets destroyed because of the destruction of the Human Order. Oh, also, Narita’s Fake is different, because it’s a special middle ground between the two.

Narita: O-Oh, uh, t-thanks…?

Kinoko: But Sanda’ll have to pay attention for the Case Files. It’s kind of a long story, but this part in Tsukihime R….

---

In summary:

Heroic Spirits affirm human history. They exist to preserve the order/rules of the human world.
Dead Apostles deny human history. They exist to defile the order/rules of the human world.

In Fate worlds where human order/history is strong and Heroic Spirits can be summoned as Servants, Dead Apostles have no special power other than being phantasmal species and the Ancestors do not exist.
In Tsukihime worlds where human order/history is [redacted] and Heroic Spirits can't be summoned as Servants, Dead Apostles are strong and the Ancestors exist.

The decisive point for the existence of Ancestors in Fate worlds is 1700 years before the present.
In Fate worlds Roa did not meet Arcueid yet still became a Dead Apostle.

---

WMG: Dunno lol, come up with something yourself. It's just convenient to have all the sources in one place. If I had to throw something out there:

- It's not necessarily the case that the status of Ancestors never existed at all, stemming from a cause in the origin of the term, the 27 original bloodbags of the True Ancestors. There might have been Ancestors up until the decisive deviation 1700 years ago.

- Said decisive deviation may have been Altrouge's (non-)creation, as a pivotal event in the 4th century which occurred before CM's destruction; although her importance as faction leader, DA-TA hybrid, heir to CM, Primate Murder's owner, and contractor to Zepia can only be speculated upon.

2020 edit: The timeline from Case Files material places the fight between CM and Zelretch in 300 AD, making it the more likely cause for the deviation. This also makes little sense at the moment, as the very same event also occurred in the Tsukihime world.

- Human order being [redacted] in Tsukihime worlds may have to do with the Dark Six, the cause that unites all Dead Apostles, and a system that is "currently regenerating" - implying previous use?

[Dullahan]

it occurs that the function played by the concept of 'order' - 理 - 秩序 - remains in large part unthought. we must inquire into this.

[Leftovers]

Hard to say what it means in this context without knowing why some succy bois are so goddamn important to it.

[You]

The Romantic fiction of Typemoon or rather the Romantic fiction that Nasu Kinoko is writing for Typemoon is often thought as "all in the same world," but it is fundamentally separated into two large groups that I have only hinted at.
There are the Fate worlds where Heroic Spirits are used a Servants and Tsukihime worlds where, dude, there's no way a mighty concept like a Heroic Spirit can be squeezed into an "autonomous familiar."
The difference is that the groundwork for Fate worlds thought of as "things that affirm human history" so Servants playing the leading roles; whereas the groundwork for Tsukihime worlds are "things that ■■ human history" so the leading role is played by the antagonists, Dead Apostles.
Therefore, in regards to a character in Tsukihime... the one the Church counts as part of the twenty seven ancestors.... became a powerful Dead Apostle after "an encounter."
However, in the Fate World, this "encounter" never happened in the first place, so while he became a Dead Apostle he never obtained the same level of power as the "one who was counted as an ancestor" and his mystery was deteoriated.
With these differences... the basis of the world is the same but the conditions are different so the characters are also different... I'm happy if you liked it.
"Grandpa, what about "Fake"? How does that random potluck work? That's been on my mind!"
"Hohohoho, well Hero Mashiro-chan who got Chacha to lv 80 in half a day after perma-ing her, the answer is "it's got both.""
"It's got both? So like if in Chou-han you called both odd and even? So that means,"
"Yes, Mahiro-chan who's Ilya and Kuro are level 100, it's therefore neither, one could say it's like a "FGO-like world." Like I expected, you a true hero. Take care of yourself once in a while okay?

for the bamboo broom thing

[fumei]

For point of reference, 1700 years ago is close to Camelot times.

[Reign]

It's close but I think 1500 years ago is the more generally accepted timeframe.

[fumei]

Well... I did say close...

[madarra]

its closer to the council of Niceea