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Thread: Night of the TATARI: Wild Mass Guessing and What if's?

  1. #41
    caster is mentioned time and time again to be the weakest servant

    lancer is a strong servant

    yeah, 2vs2, team caster doesn't stand a chance

  2. #42
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    Nah, the Servant tier thing is more for generalization.

    An Archer should never be able to wreck havoc and face-rolling top-tier Servants. It happened.
    Berserker is supposed to be a sympathy class for weakling Servants, and shouldn't face-roll top-tier Knight Classes. It happened.

    Too many factors are at play, thou shalt not generalize. Plus, Medea is as god-tier as Caster can get. She just get shafted due to plot necessity, a la Gilgamesh.

  3. #43
    I told 'em, I told 'em. Bugrit! eddyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight of Rider View Post
    I dunno, but if Archer almost got her with Caladobolg arrow, than I think that it's definatly possible for Lancer to get her with Striking Death Flight...
    Caladbolg II twists space itself. Death Flight relies more on brute force, and can be opposed with an equal or superior amount of mana.

    Besides, Archer distracted Caster with K&B so she wouldn't have enough time to oppose Caladbolg properly or escape.

  4. #44
    archer didn't distract her, he told her about K&B because otherwise she would have been killed. By archer who was holding back...

    i mean, seriously, she couldn't overwhelm archer who was even holding back, while she was dead serious about killing him, what makes you think she even stands a chance against lancer?

    also, when was it stated that caladbolg's space twisting effect is an actual power of the NP?

  5. #45
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    Archer had everything going for him for that fight.

    He knew who Medea is. He knew everything she can pull, because it was all in the books.

    Medea had no idea who this clown in red shirt is, let alone he can shoot megaton Broken Phantasm bombs.

  6. #46
    I told 'em, I told 'em. Bugrit! eddyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by giorno View Post
    also, when was it stated that caladbolg's space twisting effect is an actual power of the NP?
    Reread the fight.

  7. #47
    The Cartographer Egophobia's Avatar
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    I'm curious as to how tactics would factor in. I think it's been stated Sojiro had a clear terrain advantage when he worked to fend Berserker off, but assuming that Lancer and Bazett would be storming the temple in a similar fashion to Shirou and Saber, then they'd run into him on the stairway before even hitting Kuzuki and Caster. I'm using this scenario in order to have Medea within the bounds of her Territory Creation, and at her strongest. Right off the bat, I don't think Sojiro has a chance against Cu'chulainn, who has a ranged NP, jumps around enough to screw Tsubame straight to hell, rune magic, etc.

    In dealing with Kuzuki and Medea, though, didn't Nasu say in the Comtiq interview that Bazett would probably lose her first fight against Kuzuki, but curbstomp him in the second, since she'd have figured out his Snake Style by then? If Kuzuki had attacked the duo before, she'd absolutely wreck him, ending the fight in a hurry. If not, however, there's more at work here. That means that Bazett would be useless against both Kuzuki and Medea in terms of offense; let's assume for a moment that she'd just be fending Kuzuki off and trying not to, well, die. Yes, he's reinforced, but she's got basic rune magic on her side, so let's leave them be for a second.

    Yes, Medea is an extremely powerful Caster - Nasu said that she could even wreck 30% Arc based on sheer firepower with her energy rain, or something of the sort. I'm not sure about her ability to deflect the Gae Bolg, so, basically, I'm trying to work my way into a very basic statement. Yes, she won't let Lancer get close enough to melee her to death, but let's assume neither she nor Lancer aren't completely stupid. Lancer could end the fight in all of two seconds by NP-ing Kuzuki, who needs to get close, so Caster needs to have him stay back, freeing Bazett up to help Lancer.

    ...we also need to note that Lancer would have higher stats with Bazett as his Master, for one, and that Medea's energy rain was too slow to hit even Rider, who Lancer is just as fast as - if not faster.

    From there, I'd like to revisit the idea of her Argos shield. Archer had to spend an enormous amount of prana to block a single use of Gae Bolg, and Impaling Barbed Death is noted as being a ridiculously inexpensive NP.

    The attack costs very little prana, only in the double digits compared to a single spell from Caster costing hundreds of units of prana, allowing it to be used up to seven times before Lancer must obtain more prana from his master.
    So yeah, there are a ton of factors that make this impossible to decide outright, but I see the Caster squad being the ones constantly on the defensive. I mean, even if they all attacked at once, A Lancer spamming Impaling Barbed Death is going to give them hell.

    ...but if I'm missing details, please point them out. I still need to get around to actually reading through the fight.


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  8. #48
    I told 'em, I told 'em. Bugrit! eddyak's Avatar
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    Gae Bolg stabby version doesn't even factor into this. Nobody's gonna get close enough to Lancer to pull that one off. Second, Medea keeps Kuzuki the hell away from the Servant with the long weapon.

    Also, it's regular Gae Bolg that's inexpensive. Thrown version is "hurled with all of Lancer's mana", according to Archer vs Lancer.

    Archer only survived her beamspam because K&B were capable of deflecting beamspam, and he's got Eye of the Mind. I dunno where you got Rider vs Caster from, but Lancer's a sprinter, Rider's more marathon. He'd dodge her beams for a minute, then tire.

  9. #49
    The Cartographer Egophobia's Avatar
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    Ah, there we go, my apologies, I got the bit with the Rho Aias and the Gae Bolg attacks all mixed up. I suppose then I can keep all of my statements about Kojiro being a nonissue, but I'll have to take another look at Lancer vs. Caster.

    Also, the Rider vs. Caster bit was from the anime, which, diluted as it was, technically makes some sort of sense in terms of Servant parameters.


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  10. #50
    waiting Satehi's Avatar
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    Medea's Barrier = Berserker's Skin

    Gae Bolg + Runes > Berserker's Skin

    Therefore

    Gae Bolg + Runes > Medea's Barrier?

  11. #51
    The Cartographer Egophobia's Avatar
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    Hm, yeah, I need to look up more about his runes. I mean, there are also the interviews where Nasu mentions that, with his runes, Lancer could defend against Medusa's Mystic Eyes, and also there's the sheer power of the rune of fire, so I'm interested in what happens to her Territory Creation if he just burns the entire damn temple to the ground...although that's a tangent made of so many x-factors that it's irrelevant...xD.


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  12. #52
    I told 'em, I told 'em. Bugrit! eddyak's Avatar
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    @Satehi- She doesn't need to use a barrier. Gae Bolg can be nullified by an equal or larger amount of prana. Hitting him and his spear in the air with that big ol' blue beam she uses in HA and FUC should be enough to both cancel out his attack and turn him to radioactive ashes on the breeze.

    @Egophobia: All of Lancer's runes together could block a "great Noble Phantasm", according to HF. Not sure if they could block her big spells, but he needs time to put them up, whereas Medea just needs to speak, or point. Either way, as long as Caster's in her territory, gathering mana from the town, Lancer isn't gonna win without giving that fight every single drop of power he has. As long as she doesn't do anything stupid, she'll win.

  13. #53
    アルテミット・ワン Ultimate One Dartz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egophobia View Post
    Yes, Medea is an extremely powerful Caster - Nasu said that she could even wreck 30% Arc based on sheer firepower with her energy rain, or something of the sort.
    Wait what?! Please site the source, because this is the first time I ever heard about this. At any rate, this is not possible. Arcueid is + 1 stronger than her opponent, Caster's magical power is factored in her Unlimited World Back Up. Hell, it was even stated that Bazzett can dodge and counter high level Thaumaturgy, but she will lose against Caster because she'll get tired, Arcueid doesn't have that problem since she has "Unlimited Power". You must be confusing Arcueid with Aoko.

    And I am completely sure that Nasu never stated that Caster could surpass Arcueid in firepower. Shot me down if there is a hidden interview that I don't know about.

  14. #54
    I told 'em, I told 'em. Bugrit! eddyak's Avatar
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    Arc's s-called "unlimited" power comes at a pretty slow rate, though. She took a few days to recover to about 10% of her original power, remember. With Caster sucking up the prana of the entirety of Fuyuki, and her territory on top of a leyline, I reckon she could at least make a good match for Arc, if not defeat her entirely.

    Also, he was talking about 30% Arc, not Medea+1Arc.

  15. #55
    The Cartographer Egophobia's Avatar
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    @eddyak
    Hm, I think I'm going to have to concede to you on this one, based on the info Ataraxia has shown me about just how powerful she is, and also because I've underestimated Medea a fair bit in terms of just how much she can throw at Lancer at once within her own territory. Also, I was considering all parties at maximum power, meaning Lancer and Bazett were throwing all of their runic upgrades into the equation.

    ...though the mythology enthusiast in me refuses to acknowledge Cu'culainn losing to...Medea, xD.

    @dartz
    I'll work on it when I have the chance, because I've been looking for that freaking bit of information for ages. I know I read it in a quote at some point, but I'll be damned if I remembered to favorite the thread it was in. I know about the Aoko comment and the stuff archived on fuyuki, but the Arc thing made me do a bit of a double-take, so I'm sure I'm not imagining it. With my luck, it's someone confusing Aoko and Arc while quoting the same interview. At any rate, I'm already looking for it, xD.


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  16. #56
    This is how I start to visualize what a Fort anime would look like Kratosirving's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satehi View Post
    Medea's Barrier = Berserker's Skin

    Gae Bolg + Runes > Berserker's Skin

    Therefore

    Gae Bolg + Runes > Medea's Barrier?
    Has it actually been confirmed that Gae Bolg + Runes beat's Berserker's skin? I only did that crap in my fic because I found the right combination of runes to BS my way through it. :/
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  17. #57
    アルテミット・ワン Ultimate One Dartz's Avatar
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    You don't know how Arcueid's power work at all.
    First, that was because she had been previously killed by the most deadly offensive ability in the TM universe. Arcueid explicitly stated that it wouldn't have been such a big deal if she would have been killed, but the way he killed her is what caused her trouble, her lifespan was almost completely erased, of course her power will come back at a slow rate. Also, in Tsukihime, Arc had to use 80% of her power in order to recreate her body, 80% of her power, not 80% of Gaia's power, but her own power. Besides, I am pretty sure her world back up ability wasn't working properly, she is supposed to have unlimited energy, but she didn't, that's because none of her abilities were working properly, her Golden Eyes and her Marble Phantasm are good examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by eddyak View Post
    Also, he was talking about 30% Arc, not Medea+1Arc.
    See? You have no idea how her power work? 30% Arc means Arc using 70% of her own power in order to control her impulses. It has absolutely nothing to do with Gaia's back up. Her power will always be adjusted to be stronger than her opponent, since she is the embodiment of the Counter Force of Gaia, see the CF's description

    Counter Force

    抑止力 - Yokushiryoku

    A Counter Force is a whirl of formless power that will appear and adjust their magnitude in accordance to the target to be destroyed.
    To allow for absolute victory, it will appear with greater force than the target.
    @Egophobia: I really want to see this. But it's not in fuyuki, that's for sure.

  18. #58
    I told 'em, I told 'em. Bugrit! eddyak's Avatar
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    ...though the mythology enthusiast in me refuses to acknowledge Cu'culainn losing to...Medea, xD.
    I know how that feels. Also, I'm pretty sure you got Arc and Aoko mixed up as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kratosirving View Post
    Has it actually been confirmed that Gae Bolg + Runes beat's Berserker's skin? I only did that crap in my fic because I found the right combination of runes to BS my way through it. :/
    Nasu said that with all his runes and magic, Lancer stands a chance of beating Berserker. Most of us have taken that to mean he stands a tiny chance of managing to permanently kill Berserker.

    I am pretty sure her World Back up ability wasn't working properly, she is supposed to have unlimited energy, but she didn't, that's because none of her abilities were working properly, her Golden Eyes and her Marble Phantasm are good examples.
    Only when Shiki killed the world beneath them did Arc actually stop getting power from Gaia. Her backup might be unlimited, but it regenerates only with time. She said that herself.

  19. #59
    This is how I start to visualize what a Fort anime would look like Kratosirving's Avatar
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    Holy crap, than that means my method of pulling that rune combination out of my ass wasn't necessarily complete bullshit after all. Woot for both the creation of the fic and a key moment in it for sharing such an odd coincidence without knowing it.
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  20. #60
    アルテミット・ワン Ultimate One Dartz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eddyak View Post
    Only when Shiki killed the world beneath them did Arc actually stop getting power from Gaia. Her backup might be unlimited, but it regenerates only with time. She said that herself.
    True, but Arcueid isn't supposed to get tired in the middle of a fight. Yet she got tired in both the Nrvnqsr and Roa's battle, that wouldn't have happened if Primal One would have been working properly.

    Besides, you're using a bad example, when Shiki killed the world Arc wasn't holding back her impulses, so she was using her full power. Gaia is supposed to adjust her power so that she is only slightly above her opponent, this obviously wasn't the case when she was fighting Shiki, just like when she killed all 100 True Ancestors inside her castle. This is probably because Gaia can't put a leash on her once she gets out of control.

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