I reckon it's the other way around- Gaia gives her the opponent's power +1, but that's only at the beginning, when it goes "kay, castle's materialised, go out into the world, your target is here someplace, here's x+1 power." Then it just refills her as she uses up the power. Because your way, Gaia would be adjusting her vampiric impulses along with the power it gave her.
But I suppose we can't really argue over this, we don't have any specifics. Down to personal opinion til Nasu says otherwise.
Yeah, I know Arcueid's powers are a mess, but it seems to me that you aren't taking Nasu's words into consideration. Review Nasu's Arc vs Gil interview again. Her power is always adjusted according to her opponent, but it only factors single entity ability, this is why Gil is such a bad match up for her, because he has over 1000 weapons. By your logic, Arc wouldn't get back up against Servants at all (and pretty much everything he said in the Arc vs Gil interview would be void), since they aren't supposed to be her targets, yet Nasu stated that Arc vs Servants comes down to Unlimited Back Up vs Noble Phantasms. Here is the World Back Up's description, it's from Extra, but it's only the ability's description
This ability is supposed to be always with her. Also, the one who adjusts her vampiric impulses is Arcueid herself, not Gaia, we already know this.[Original One [EX→ x]]
Ultimate One
A skill which brings her to specs a level above those she faces by receiving the backup of the planet.
....However, because of her Master's misconception, this doesn't seem to be working one bit.
It doesn't really matter, it's not like is something new. After all, her ability was already explained by Nasu in that interview from Comptiq 9.
Theory: Zero-Caster is supposed to represent the fanbase's initial thoughts to Saber...IE "Knight-Girl with sword?, gotta be Joan of Arc".
Another Theory, explaining Archerko's origins:
Archerko is a grown-up Illya post-unreleased Illya route. Easily believable, right? Question is, where'd the bladespamming come from???
Answer: She was implanted with Avalon inside of her - a la Kiritsugu/Shirou, only this time it's Shirou/Illya - meanong that Saber and Shirou become close enough in-game for awareness of the sheath to develop and of its properties. Illya's Origin gets overwritten to "Sword" by the sheath like how it happens with Shirou, only for whatever reason (because she has more prana/circuits,whatever) her Origin gets overwritten quickly, and alongside her innate magical knowledge/ability decides to make use of her newfound affinity for blades to emulate Shirou's/Archer's fighting styles.
Avalon also makes her into a woman who looks more like her age because because. Use your asspull logic of choice.
My Fanfics. Read 'em. Or not.McJon01: We all know that the real reason Archer would lose to Rider is because the events of his own Holy Grail War left him with a particular weakness toward "older sister" types.
I can actually think of another way to interpret that quote. It could also be taken to mean what Yak said, that her abilities are adjusted towards her intended target, where her base Ability Scores are equal to her target's plus one. The fight then boils down to "which is better: Higher Ability Scores, or Noble Phantasms?" I imagine that Arc would end up with a set Prana Cap based on her Ability Scores, and would just refill magical energy slowly like in Tsukihime, though still at a much faster rate than a Servant without special methods.
In a Caster vs. Arc fight, I can see Arc at a disadvantage in that case. Caster has low Ability Scores, except for MGI. Arc could benefit from a high magic stat, but not as much as Caster does. Couple that with Caster's range of spells and combat style, and you end up with what amounts to a magic duel between High Speed Divine Words and Marble Phantasm. I'd measure those to be about equal, though that's just my opinion. In practice, the fuel supply is where the fight is determined.
Normally, Arc would have that in the bag, but not so much against entrenched Caster. She's commandeered the primary Leyline for the whole Holy Land and is nocking back magical energy like there's no tomorrow. The question then becomes the following: Is Caster relying entirely on the souls of Fuyuki, or is she using the actual Prana of the Holy Land itself? If not, Arc will outlast her and win, since Caster's NP's are nearly useless for this fight. But if Caster is able to use the ambient Prana (exactly what High Speed Divine Words is described as doing), then Arc has a problem.
Caster is actually stealing Arc's fuel supply every time she takes an action, and, further, she can use the human souls of Fuyuki for more juice. In effect, in these circumstances, Caster may actually have a better Prana supply than Arc. Further, Primordial One only accounts for Ability Scores, not items or knowledge. In her legend, Medea uses spells capable of putting a stop to even very powerful Transcendence Kind. In other words, the fight isn't as one-sided as it initially looks. If the factors operate as I described, then Medea actually could curbstomp a 30% Arc.
At which point she'd reboot to Archetype-Earth, and that would be the end of Caster.
This is my understanding of Arc's power. I hope it's not too confusing...
Nasu said this, so we should assume without Gaia's backup, Arc is about as strong as a Servant, which is 1/4th of 30% Arc (7.5%).Single entity abilities of Arc and Servants are roughly on the same level
So basically,
Arc after Shiki kills her = ~3% (IIRC it was stated to be around 10% of her "normal" 30%)
Arc without any backup = 7.5%
Arc with backup and holding back her blood thirst = 30%
Arc with backup and no blood thirst = 100%
In addition to contributing the 92.5% Arc needs to reach her body's maximum potential, Gaia also constantly refills her. However, Gaia places restrictions on how much of this power Arc can use at any one time, depending on her enemy. Arc also ties up 70% of this to suppress her blood thirst, so even if Gaia allows her to use more than 30%, Arc effectively can't.
It should be noted that even though Gaia restricts her usage, the power is still there, contained in Arc's body. If this weren't the case, then she would never be able to suppress her blood thirst.
That much is pretty simple, but it gets more complicated when considering the power Roa stole from her. If we assume that 100% is Arc's original maximum, and the power Roa stole is subtracted from that, the math falls apart. So instead, let's assume the 100% Arc we normally refer to is actually her maximum power after subtracting what Roa stole, so in reality it's not her "true 100%", but just her "effective 100%". So, after she gets her power back from Roa, she will still be using the same amount of power to suppress her blood thirst, but the percentage will have changed, increasing the maximum amount of power she can use freely.
However, determining the actual numbers is impossible since we don't know how much power Roa stole. If we knew exactly how much power the MEoDP took, then we could get a minimum on the stolen power. I can't remember if the VN ever said how much this was, but IIRC the manga put it at 50%. So, let's calculate this assuming that's correct.
Arc's maximum capacity = X
Roa Steals Y from that.
Arc's max capacity now = 100
She uses 70 to supress her blood thrist, leaving her at an effective 30
she loses 50 from MEoDP, and cannot recover that.
She is now at 50
We know that she was at an effective 3 for most of Tsukihime, so she uses 47 to suppress her blood thirst
She needs 70, but is short by 23
3 of that can come from what she is using, so she needs at least 20 more
So, we know that the power stolen by Roa puts her at least at 70, so it needs to be >= 20.
In the end, Arc's power looks something like this:
3% = Arc after she was killed by Shiki, with backup and suppressing her blood thirst
7.5% = Base Arc without backup or blood thirst
30% = Arc with backup and suppressing her blood thirst
50% = Arc after she was killed by Shiki, with backup and not suppressing her blood thirst
100% = Arc with backup and no blood thirst.
120+% = Arc with backup and no blood thirst, after regaining the power stolen by Roa
Her true 100% is really after she gets the stolen power back, but it's much easier to list it out like this, and would be hard to convert the other percentages since we still don't have a solid number of the stolen power, just a minimum.
Another thing to consider, unless the power Roa stole is actually >= 50%, she won't immediately be returned to the "30% Arc" we know, and will have to overcome the MEoDP so that Gaia can refill that portion of her power. I believe she will eventually do this, since she seems to be back at 30% in Melty Blood. On the other hand, if she does over come the MEoDP, her effective cap from the blood thirst should change from 30% to at least 50%.
Of course, all of this hinges on the MEoDP taking 50% being accurate. If they actually took considerably less, her minimum original power would decrease as would the minimum amount Roa stole from her, while if they took more, both those things would increase.
About how her restrictions work, I would think it would take the stats of the enemy, or combined stats of the enemies she's facing, and then add that on top of her base 7.5%, and that becomes her "cap". That's just speculation though.
Last edited by agentzero; March 20th, 2011 at 02:03 AM. Reason: Fixed some math
Arc power levels. Warning, may cause migraines in some users. Take only as prescribed.
Side effects may include piercing pains in head, powerlevel discussions, Dartz, off-hand remarks about Sakura, Mike, death, increased risk of cyborg koala attack, the Land of Steel, and Aristotles attacks.
If syptoms persist, pleas consult your personal Magus. In rare cases, these syptoms may be a sign of a rare birth defect known as Crimson Moon syndrome.
Or the more deadly (and lesser known) KATTO KATTO KATTO disorder.
Back on topic. What if Araya opened a bar instead of an apartment complex?
He'd pass off all the deaths as alcohol poisoning, but I don't think the alcohol damaged brains would be very effective for experimentation, so Alba probably wouldn't be as interested.
What if Taiga was an accomplished magus? O.o
If Taiga is an accomplished Magus...
Run.
An accomplished magus doesn't really want too many people aware of the fact that they're an accomplished magus. Not a single person thinks Taiga is a magus. Logically, then, she must be the most accomplished magus in the world, since she's so damn good at keeping that fact from getting out.
Taiga wasn't actually affected by Rider's Bloodfort, she was just pretending so she could stay under the radar.
No, you don't understand. Arcueid gets an ammount of power based on her enemy's "fighting power". For example, if according to Gaia, Caster's powerlevel is 200, then Arc would get an ammount of power in accordance to that, but the power given to her by the World will be ditributed among all her stats (not just MGI). Otherwise if she were fighting a Servant with EX Rank Speed and E-in all other stats, then she will get a boost in speed and nothing more. No, her power doesn't work that way.Originally Posted by Twelveseal
Pretty sure if it comes to a duel between Caster's magic and Marble Phantasm, then Caster has no chance. You need to understand that the power of MP depends on the scale of the Elemental, the larger the scale of the Elemental, the more powerful MP is. And Arc was explicitly stated to be an entity on the same scale as a Type; I am not saying she is as powerful, but she is of the same scale, and in terms of scale Types >>>>>> Servants.Couple that with Caster's range of spells and combat style, and you end up with what amounts to a magic duel between High Speed Divine Words and Marble Phantasm. I'd measure those to be about equal, though that's just my opinion.
No, first, as far as we know, Caster has no way to kill Arcueid in a way that a reboot would be needed. Second, her power will still be adjusted, see hereAt which point she'd reboot to Archetype-Earth, and that would be the end of Caster
Only Devil Arcueid is the one that can be as strong as her opponent + 10, even against a normal human. Also, Nasu stated in his interview that normal!Arc (as in, non Fallen Arc) in anti-Servant mode will get the power of 2 Servants single-entity stats. Though since AE is Arc at 100%, she can use the full power of her MP, which even allows her to create Fairy villages, but her power (excluding MP) is still going to be adjusted."Arcueid, a True Ancestor, does not (cannot) do pointless things, so she adjusts her fighting power according to her opponent, but Warc uses her power mercilessly even on mere humans."
@agentzero: That's a nice theory, and I will consider it, but I think it is a bit unnecessarily complicated.
You see, it was stated in Tsukihime, by Arcueid herself, that she had to use 80% (of her 100%, excluding the power stolen by Roa of course) of her power in order to recreate her body, not 50%. 100 - 80 = 20 - 70% of 20 = 6%, that was her current power in Tsukihime. It should be noted that Arcueid uses her own power in order to control her impulses, she doesn't use Gaia's power, this affects her MP too, since some of her thoughts are also used in order to control her impulses. She uses 70% of her own power in order to control her impulses, it is completely unrelated to Gaia's back up, Gaia's back up is just added onto her current power.
Also, it was never stated that she has a max output. Anti-Servant Arcueid = 4 Servants in power/2 Servants in stats. She is very very different from Counter Guardians, since, although powerful, they are still humans, while Arcueid and the True Ancestors were created for the sole reason to be Gaia's guardians. I don't think she has a fixed max output, since her world back up is explicitly stated to be "unlimited", maybe 50% of the Earth's power or so, who knows?
Last edited by Dartz; March 20th, 2011 at 11:00 AM.
Nah, it's gotta be far less than that. Imagine a wine barrel (Gaia) with a tap (Arc)- you can't have a tap that's half as big as the wine barrel. She has to have a max output per second, just as Rin is limited to 1,000, and Shirou is limited to about 270. Since Medea's output is theoretically unlimited (she doesn't use her Circuits, remember), Medea should be able to overwhelm Arc in sheer force.I don't think she has a fixed max output, since her world back up is explicitly stated to be "unlimited", maybe 50% of the Earth's power or so, who knows?
But that's just brute force, that's not accounting for any tricks or different applications of power either of them could pull, like Arc manipulating the air so that Medea can no longer fly, or summoning her castle, or Medea blasting the floor out from under Arc, or catching her in a magical trap, or increasing gravity tenfold, so that she can't run around.
Arcueid is the embodiment of the Planet's Consciousness, this was explicitly stated. In a way, she is the Planet. I mean, Gaia cannot move, touch or fight by herself, which is why Arcueid is the one that moves, touch, or fight. She is Earth's "sense of touch".
I don't think Medea has infinite output, otherwise she'll be able to beat any Servant. Her output should still be limited by her magical power (MGI).
First order of business: Gaia uses Arc to masturbate. Billions of pent upsexual frustration for those neigboring stars and planets, man.
Hope Rides With His Godly Ronin/Cowboy Brother In Law
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