Like I said, it's a matter of philosophy at this point.Originally Posted by Hyarion
If you load a dead person's thoughts onto a high end computer, this consciousness thinks he is still alive, and has everything the dead person has. The scenario is pretty much what Altria is in.
If you think she is alive, you are with leopard. If you think she is dead, you are with me. There's really no right/wrong here.
Yes, they are. They just got summoned as Heroic Spirits. Who are there solely to fight and then die again....
Well, I don't deny that, I'm just saying that, in the end, she is a servant, and thus is "supposed" to die. She was summoned for that purpose and from the moment she arrived it's the end she expected. So, it's hardly such a tragic end when it does. And, plus, there's every chance she's going to end up in Avalon anyway. Which is a hell of a lot better than being tortured to death and then having your soul chucked in the recycling bin to be wiped clean.
If you claim otherwise, then Shirou is a bad person for fighting in the Grail War at all, as is Rin. After all, they were quite happy with killing the servants, even if the masters were (usually) off-limits.
Artoria's body and timeline are frozen in time but she's still alive. She's been made a Servant while still being alive. So she is alive.
Shirou, you didn't save Sakura. You're going to jail. You don't cross the start line and get a $15,000 bonus.If you claim otherwise, then Shirou is a bad person for fighting in the Grail War at all, as is Rin. After all, they were quite happy with killing the servants, even if the masters were (usually) off-limits.
True, but by the same logic she wasn't actually killed in HF, because her soul goes straight back to her body again and she gets another chance.
However, ultimately the worst that can happen to her is that she achieves her wish (which she made) and then becomes a CG as a result. Which is her own damn fault, because she chose to make that wish, and never overcame it. Otherwise, she gets eternal life in Avalon. So, forgive me for not feeling remotely sorry for her....
So, what? If you replaced somebody's brain neuron by neuron with nanotechnology that serves exactly the same function, over the course of a year or so without the person noticing, then you just killed them? Or a person with a cochlear implant can't really hear?
And I guess that copy of Windows XP I have on my VM isn't really Windows XP, I'll have to call Microsoft and complain.
Baaaaaaw, I'm sad now.
She won't get another chance. The Grail is busted in HF. Plus, now she knows what the grail really is, so what's the point for her to use it?
Humans are biologically supposed to die also, yet that doesn't make it any less sad when one of us dies. I don't see how the fact that their death is inevitable makes it less tragic.
Self defense.If you claim otherwise, then Shirou is a bad person for fighting in the Grail War at all, as is Rin. After all, they were quite happy with killing the servants, even if the masters were (usually) off-limits.
But we are not talking gradual here. If you incorporate changes gradually, they become part of "who they are". However, here we are talking about "BAM! MORTAL WOUND! Conscious-pulling-leaving-you-essentially-brain-dead".
Again, such debate can go on forever like all hardcore philosophical questions.
It is more like "in limbo". She is in the middle of the transition process after dying, and the World is deciding which dead-soul zoo to throw her in (Throne/Fairy World/Guardian Barracks of the Throne).
EDIT:
Of course, important figures in Nasuverse never go through "soul-shredding-recycle". Death for these figures/Heroes is essentially "end of mortal life in the World", which is what happened to Altria.
Last edited by food; May 8th, 2011 at 06:44 PM.
Yeah but she still learns from experience and changes unlike the other Heroic Spirits not named EMIYA.
Edit: also don't forget Nasu says she is alive so there.
That's a nope.
That's the World's equivalent of putting her body on ventilation. The World cannot pull the plug until the deal is done, and it figures out where to chuck her soul. She woke up for a moment and then was gone again because the deal was done and the plug was pulled.
No matter what the World did, she was not gonna stand up and walk among the living in that very era. She was dead, in the practical sense.
In the practical sense, sure, but not the literal sense. It's an important distinction. We're all dead in the practical sense, to varying degrees.
No, you are dead when you are brain dead, even when on ventilation.
That was what Sabre was under that tree, dead and on ventilation, while the World tries to figure out what to do with her soul.
Except she's not braindead, she's alive and experiencing her wacky time travel adventures as dreams in the span of a single instant.
That's why I said "practically dead".
She was able to tell Bedivere those last words because the World must run the formality of letting her breath out her last breath. She was in limbo the whole time and she was tossed back into her body and pulled back out again to fulfill the contract.
It's like those "1 dollar wage" of corporate executives who are entirely on stock option, but still needs to get "wage" because the contract says so.
Is it a wage? Legally, sure. But is it really? No, it's symbolic, there's no wage.
Still, practically dead isn't dead, uess you want to claim that a person is dead just before they die. Which then turns into a "when do grains of sand become a pile" problem wherein you could claim that everybody is already dead.
No, I am not trying to argue with you the Ship of Theseus.
I am just trying to show you my view that "all Servants are dead men walking, so they are not alive". And as you have seen, this is getting into philosophical crap, which I hate, which is also why I said a few pages back that this is regressing into philosophy and there's no right/wrong.
Im not exactly a fan of philosophy, either, it's basically pseudoscience. That's why I prefer the crisp boundary of "dead" and "not dead". Most Servants are dead. Saber is not dead. It's easy.
Which isn't to say that Saber is any different than the other Servants as far as surveying in the present day. She might not be technically dead, but she's still the product of another era and clearly something that doesn't belong.
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