Night of the TATARI: Wild Mass Guessing and What if's?

[Mike1984]

Baaaaaaw, I'm sad now.

She won't get another chance. The Grail is busted in HF. Plus, now she knows what the grail really is, so what's the point for her to use it?

So, then, she goes to Avalon. What's the problem?

Humans are biologically supposed to die also, yet that doesn't make it any less sad when one of us dies. I don't see how the fact that their death is inevitable makes it less tragic.

Yeah, but those spirits are dead already. And, further, copies of them still exist in the throne. Except for Saber, of course, who if she is killed just goes back to her body with all her memories, which really means that she wasn't killed at all.

Unless Bedivere was hallucinating, Saber hasn't died yet.

Yes, she has. She died 1500 years ago (well, if you discount the whole "going to Avalon" thing...).

[Mcjon01]

Baaaaaaw, I'm sad now.

She won't get another chance. The Grail is busted in HF. Plus, now she knows what the grail really is, so what's the point for her to use it?

Well, if the corruption carries over to the main body then I imagine her reason for seeking the Grail would be to gleefully unleash the destruction within onto the world. Because, you know. Evil.

[SeiKeo]

Yeah, but those spirits are dead already. And, further, copies of them still exist in the throne. Except for Saber, of course, who if she is killed just goes back to her body with all her memories, which really means that she wasn't killed at all.

It doesn't matter if they've died, because they're alive right now.

[Keyne]

Well, if the corruption carries over to the main body then I imagine her reason for seeking the Grail would be to gleefully unleash the destruction within onto the world. Because, you know. Evil.

Or her body will not accept the soul it's not familiar with, leaving her stranded in between life and death. And if she returns, she'll die. But the Fairies won't allow an impure soul inside Avalon.

[terraablaze]

I am going to guess at most she simply gives up on her wish, she doesn't seem all that different from normal Saber to be honest. Evil in the Nasuverse doesn't really do much beyond give you a new paint job.

[Keyne]

I am going to guess at most she simply gives up on her wish, she doesn't seem all that different from normal Saber to be honest. Evil in the Nasuverse doesn't really do much beyond give you a new paint job.

I agree.

[Airen]

It doesn't matter if they've died, because they're alive right now.

^This. They can interact with the people around them, they have the power to change things, therefore they have to be alive. Even if their memories are fake, they, as a person, are still just as alive as anyone else.

[Mike1984]

Or her body will not accept the soul it's not familiar with, leaving her stranded in between life and death. And if she returns, she'll die. But the Fairies won't allow an impure soul inside Avalon.

That depends on whether her soul was actually corrupted to that extent. It's not by any means certain.

I am going to guess at most she simply gives up on her wish, she doesn't seem all that different from normal Saber to be honest. Evil in the Nasuverse doesn't really do much beyond give you a new paint job.

Bullshit.

See Sakura, for one thing. She was very different from normal. And, so was Saber herself, for that matter.

[Hyarion]

/obligatory

[SeiKeo]

INB4 Kotomine is not always right.

[terraablaze]

/obligatory

Surprised anyone noticed.


Also point out how Saber Alter acts differently. I argued she might react differently to Gilgamesh in the crack pairings thread because I heard something about disillusionment with modern humans, but other than that she acts pretty much the same with the minor exception that she always scowls.
Loyal to master-check
Brutally defeats opponents-check
Wants to help people-check
Concerned for Shirou-check
Tough on above person-check

How is Saber Alter substantially different?

[Mike1984]

/obligatory

That still does not in any way show that Angra Mainyu does nothing to people it corrupts but change their skin. Sakura quite obviously acts differently when under the influence of Angra Mainyu, and anyone who tries to claim otherwise wants their head examined.

Wants to help people-check

When does Saber Alter ever try to "help people"?

Also, her canon alignment is "Lawful Evil". That's pretty good sign that her personality has changed....

[terraablaze]

Except "Evil" means diddly squat in the Nasuverse the most part. Heaven's Feel makes that quite clear.

From the scene where Illya is kidnapped by Sakura:

"…This is your final warning. Sakura will obtain the Holy Grail one way or another. That is the only way for her to be released.
Even if the result is her death, Matou Sakura will be saved."

"If you wish to save her, then withdraw.
Should you follow us in spite of that I will take your head."

/endquote
Edit:
Of course Sakura acts differently when she is possessed by Angra Mainyu, it is only when she accepts herself as a monster that it is able to possess her

Sakura performs acts she considers evil, she is then possessed by All Evils of this World.
Normally this is pointless since it is "nothingness" and is nothing more than human evil that already exists, but Sakura is hooked up to a wishing machine by it and gets super powers.
Edit2:
Hey food (or anyone for that matter), do you have that part about Angra Mainyu acting as a mirror of humanity that deadfish posted?

[Erlkonig]

And Dark Sakura initially wanted Shirou and Rin to escape before shit got real. She even said so to their faces while transfigured.

Of course, she hadn't gone off the deep end yet.

[Mike1984]

Except "Evil" means diddly squat in the Nasuverse the most part. Heaven's Feel makes that quite clear.

Erm, what?

From the scene where Illya is kidnapped by Sakura:

"…This is your final warning. Sakura will obtain the Holy Grail one way or another. That is the only way for her to be released.
Even if the result is her death, Matou Sakura will be saved."

"If you wish to save her, then withdraw.
Should you follow us in spite of that I will take your head."

How is that her "trying to help people"? I'm pretty sure that Sakura quite specifically ordered her not to kill them unless they followed her.

Of course Sakura acts differently when she is possessed by Angra Mainyu, it is only when she accepts herself as a monster that it is able to possess her

Erm, what?

People don't suddenly do a 180 degree personality change just because they "accept themselves as a monster".

Sakura performs acts she considers evil, she is then possessed by All Evils of this World.

No, she performs an act which she considered "evil" (which, BTW, is blatently not), and thus allowed AM to take over in a moment of weakness.

Normally this is pointless since it is "nothingness" and is nothing more than human evil that already exists, but Sakura is hooked up to a wishing machine by it and gets super powers.

Again, what?

This is the biggest pile of total bullshit I've ever heard from anyone. Dark Sakura is not just "normal Sakura with super powers". She acts totally differently in every way, and it's made quite clear in the game that AM is affecting her, not only when she's Dark but even before that.

[TypeWannabe]

That doesn't count like, at all. Angra Mainyu would have killed humanity. I mean, I know Sakura was saying something about aborting it, but seriously, I doubt that statement, and apparently Shirou did too.

[Mike1984]

That doesn't count like, at all. Angra Mainyu would have killed humanity.

Yes, and? Sakura wasn't trying to give birth to it, she merely didn't do anything to stop it (not that she could have even if she wanted to).

I mean, I know Sakura was saying something about aborting it, but seriously, I doubt that statement, and apparently Shirou did too.

What, so you're willing to take Kotomine's word as absolute, but not Sakura's?

[TypeWannabe]

What? No, check the times. I was answering Erlkonig.

EDIT: OK, the times aren't trustworthy, ignore them.

[Erlkonig]

That doesn't count like, at all. Angra Mainyu would have killed humanity. I mean, I know Sakura was saying something about aborting it, but seriously, I doubt that statement, and apparently Shirou did too.

I'm not sure if she knew everything would die yet. But, Sakura's intentions could not, at that time, that instant, be called evil.

[TypeWannabe]

She was living with ALL THE EVILS OF THE WORLD. How could she have expected it to be an isolated incident?