Night of the TATARI: Wild Mass Guessing and What if's?

[Seika]

Also wtf when did Headcanon thread get deleted???

Ooooooh. I knew there'd be unintended consequences when they put Bridge out on global ignore. Same problem as with omegasonic: you can't see threads he started.

[mewarmo990]

I'm trying to dig up my old posts on the thing I was talking about just now and yeah, can't access those either because they were under that topic.

[Seika]

Yur.

Speculating. Kertys is me:

Spoiler:

[5:38 PM] Kertys: it's not like concrete canon but
[5:38 PM] Kertys: the last TM Ace had that timeline of different legends that show up in Fate
[5:38 PM] Christemo: shakti the actual deity is supposed to represent like the underlying cosmic force, that sounds pretty close to the pillars holding down the laws of the world thing
[5:38 PM] Kertys: just to help jpn players who dont know the history
[5:39 PM] Christemo: oh rad
[5:39 PM] Kertys: and Mahabharata was dated before Gilgamesh
[5:39 PM] Christemo: well the epic being older is like
[5:39 PM] Christemo: almost certain
[5:39 PM] Kertys: yea I know, just
[5:39 PM] Kertys: it means he might introduce some twist on Gil being "humanity's oldest hero"
[5:40 PM] Kertys: or maybe just make Karna and Arjuna more recent lol. they already took liberty with Moses
[5:41 PM] Christemo: well moses being roughly around ozy
[5:41 PM] Kertys: most scholars agree the "Ramses" pharaoh of Exodus was not Ramessess II but they just made it that way for TM
[5:41 PM] Christemo: is not that strange
[5:41 PM] Christemo: moses is like, late 1500-1400BC
[5:41 PM] Christemo: Ramesses born in 1403BC or something
[5:41 PM] Christemo: plus remember Moses lived like 180 years
[5:41 PM] Kertys: i mean its fine with me
[5:42 PM] Kertys: cause the main theories for Moses' Ramses was just various kings of no real note
[5:42 PM] Kertys: so this is cooler
[5:44 PM] Christemo: Krishna died in roughly 3102BC, which was 36 years after the Kurukshetra War
[5:44 PM] Christemo: timeline wise
[5:44 PM] Kertys: yeah I wonder how Nasu will reconcile that
[5:44 PM] Kertys: since Gilgamesh is historical king
[5:45 PM] Kertys: oh, maybe he's like
[5:45 PM] Christemo: Vyasa probably took 2000 years to write it all down lol
[5:45 PM] Kertys: really really old
[5:45 PM] Kertys: like by the time we get records of Gil being king he's been around a long ass time
[5:46 PM] Christemo: I mean they could also go with the reverse; that Vyasa didnt start telling stories about the Mahabharata until much later, it depends
[5:46 PM] Christemo: (Vyasa's got eternal life so)
[5:46 PM] Kertys: but how is that relevant to the Mahahbarata taking place before Gil
[5:46 PM] Kertys: if we just go by dates i mean
[5:47 PM] Kertys: (IRL)
[5:47 PM] Christemo: just trying to think of how they dont count as heroes before Gil
[5:47 PM] Kertys: yea thats my question
[5:47 PM] Kertys: maybe its some reason like that, or nasu just moves the dates around to fit(edited)
[5:47 PM] Kertys: or my "Gil is old" theory lol
[5:48 PM] Christemo: nasu shouldve really just went for "Gil is the first Hero-king" instead
[5:48 PM] Kertys: aren't there kings who are also heroes in the indian myths tho
[5:48 PM] Christemo: yeah but most of them are kind of nobodies
[5:48 PM] Christemo: i mean its easier to just say "what about gil's dad and granddad etc"
[5:48 PM] Christemo: because Lugalbanda was some badass as well IIRC
[5:49 PM] Kertys: here's another theory, it doesn't fit with Karna and Arjuna and Rama but i'll say it anyway
[5:49 PM] Kertys: maybe the Throne of Heroes didn't start being a thing until a certain time
[5:49 PM] Christemo: maybe the throne is the Original Sin
[5:49 PM] Kertys: smth about the way eirei are made
[5:50 PM] Kertys: not enough humans
[5:50 PM] Kertys: something like that
[5:50 PM] Kertys: since the reason we can even have Heroic Spirits being these super avatars of humanity is because we're in the Age of Humanity
[5:50 PM] Christemo: The throne could easily be the Original Sin they're talking about, if they go for something like "Man's greatest, original sin, was worshipping themselves"
[5:51 PM] Kertys: that'd be cool, yeah
[5:51 PM] Kertys: starting to see it now, after the bits about Dead Apostles vs Fate in other titles
[5:51 PM] Kertys: in worlds/times where humanity is strong enough, we can use heroic spirits
[5:52 PM] Kertys: since Dead Apostlse are supposed to be antithesis of human history/law
[5:52 PM] Kertys: there are worlds where DAs are stronger and we can't use heroic spirits on the servant level
[5:52 PM] Christemo: THE MOON PEOPLE
[5:52 PM] Kertys: and that connects to Age of Gods
[5:52 PM] Kertys: where the god spirits are still the supreme organisms
[5:52 PM] Kertys: and humans are like animals
[5:53 PM] Kertys: and Gil moving humanity away from that status...
[5:53 PM] Kertys: its coming together, man
[5:53 PM] Christemo: so Gil becomes the centerpoint against vampires, just like in World of Darknesss...
[5:53 PM] Kertys: what if "First Heroic Spirit" is because he's the guy who makes Heroic Spirits possible
[5:54 PM] Kertys: nah well, with vampires, Gil doesn't really know about them because they came way later. but he's related to power shift from gods to humans
[5:54 PM] Kertys: only in some universes you have these vampire monsters who walk all over humans, later

[madarra]

Back in December I speculated that Gil might be called the "oldest hero" for reasons other than chronologically being the oldest, since he wasn't. I don't really wanna rehash it again but in short




Also wtf when did Headcanon thread get deleted???

inb4 Gil created the throne as a hall of fame for Enkidu and then all these scrubs got in...

[mewarmo990]

Thanks Seika! When did I post that btw?

[Seika]

Tenth of August.

[mewarmo990]

ooooooh. Babylonia released on December 7th...

It's interesting because by the time period of the Babylonia singularity in FGO, the gods are stated to have already left the world while an older, wiser Gil rules Sumer. I'm wondering if there was some tangible event Gil was involved with that finally tipped the world's scales towards humanity as the basis for the new law. The straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.

I wonder when's the next time we'll get another AoG story.

[LJ3]

Makes sense tbh, it would certainly jive with what CCC introduced

or maybe it's funnier to imagine the gods deciding after gilgamesh's myth "fuck this, we're out"

[Ereus]

Back in December I speculated that Gil might be called the "oldest hero" for reasons other than chronologically being the oldest, since he wasn't. I don't really wanna rehash it again but in short




Also wtf when did Headcanon thread get deleted???

I wouldnt mind that as maha and rama are dated older usually.

[Leftovers]

I don't know why I keep seeing it pop on this forum but there's nothing that says TA don't exist in Fate worlds. EXTRA even described them iirc.

Dead Apostles are just weaker in Fate worlds; they're described in a vague meta way of being anti-human history, corroborated by statements like the one about the pulsing human order in Labyrinth. So when history is stronger, they are weaker.

The thought was to tie together True Ancestors being the world's anti-humanity mechanism by design, DAA originating from the first TA bloodbags that broke free, and the pulsing human order business. My guess about no DAA in Fate is that the TA bloodbags either didn't rebel or that the act did not establish the hierarchy that vampire society was built around.

[fumei]

I wouldnt mind that as maha and rama are dated older usually.

What?

The epic is dated ca. 2000 BC, Mahabharata is dated ca. 900 BC (at most), and Ramayana is dated ca. 1000 AD​

[Vagrant]

What?

The epic is dated ca. 2000 BC, Mahabharata is dated ca. 900 BC (at most), and Ramayana is dated ca. 1000 AD​

The epics are dated around then, but the wars depicted in them have wildly differing estimations as to when they supposedly happened. From the wiki:

Aryabhatta's date of February 18 3102 BCE for Mahābhārata war has become widespread in Indian tradition.

So I assume he means that?

[fumei]

Right, I guess that's it

[Ereus]

Right, I guess that's it

Yeah when they were written IRL is earlier than gil but the wars depicted are estimated to be all over the place, a lot of estimations place it older than gil in nasu.
Also there is a actual older myth with gils father lugalbanda.

[Vagrant]

The earlier forms of Gil's epic are most certainly older than the common form of the Vedic epics, and even the standardized Gil Epic is placed slightly earlier I think.

Clearly Lugalbanda just isn't heroic enough to make it to the Throne.

[Ereus]

I prefer to go with a simple explanation known as 'Nasu didn't know of lugulbanda or the dates of the wars in mahabarata/Ramayana'
I mean I have seen people saying Ramayana took place in 7000 BC.

[Vagrant]

I prefer to go with a simple explanation known as 'Nasu didn't know of lugulbanda or the dates of the wars in mahabarata/Ramayana'
I mean I have seen people saying Ramayana took place in 7000 BC.

I prefer to go with "Gil is the most well known of those truly ancient heroes, especially back when Nasu would have been writing FSN, and Gil is much more significant than Lugalbanda anyway so may as well make him the first aside from those compounding factors and also Lugalbanda is lame gil is love did lugalbanda defy the gods and bro it up with a weapon meant to kill him before accepting the inevitability of death and how it makes humans special no he didnt because he just isnt as cool as gil".

[Ereus]

I prefer to go with "Gil is the most well known of those truly ancient heroes, especially back when Nasu would have been writing FSN, and Gil is much more significant than Lugalbanda anyway so may as well make him the first aside from those compounding factors and also Lugalbanda is lame gil is love did lugalbanda defy the gods and bro it up with a weapon meant to kill him before accepting the inevitability of death and how it makes humans special no he didnt because he just isnt as cool as gil".

Ehh not really, I mean the mahabarata is really well known in India, like they have made multiple tv series on it.
I mean I feel like due to cross contamination they would be known better.
Also Lugulbanda according to the uruk king list ruled for 1200 years, on and he was apparently really damn fast.

[Sandstorm77]

They do know the mahabrata is set in an even older time, it was written as much in last year type moon ace (or was it chaldea ace?) where there was a timeline of when several stories took place and it was put before gil. Though there was a disclaimer that what was in the magazine was the actual real world timeline and not necessarily the type moon one.

We also know that they had other candidates when they designed the oldest hero, but they ended going with gil.

[Ereus]

They do know the mahabrata is set in an even older time, it was written as much in last year type moon ace (or was it chaldea ace?) where there was a timeline of when several stories took place and it was put before gil. Though there was a disclaimer that what was in the magazine was the actual real world timeline and not necessarily the type moon one.

We also know that they had other candidates when they designed the oldest hero, but they ended going with gil.

Yeah true, but it is irritating they went with one who cannot be the oldest even if you ignore the mahabarata and ramayana, hell ignore literally every myth but gils and you would still have lugulbanda