Night of the TATARI: Wild Mass Guessing and What if's?

[Mcjon01]

Yeah, before the modern era magic dealt with divine mysteries. Totally different.

[mewarmo990]

it was a NAZO

[Ereus]

What I meant was that magecraft gets weaker over time due to science being understood and such? Yet for the Sefar to design such a strong entity and be so technological, I was saying they either had no mystery or had 'cheated' it so to speak.

[Kyte]

It's an alien. It doesn't count.

[mewarmo990]

What I meant was that magecraft gets weaker over time due to science being understood and such? Yet for the Sefar to design such a strong entity and be so technological, I was saying they either had no mystery or had 'cheated' it so to speak.

.

In the first place, mystery is basically irrelevant when you aren't talking about modern magic.

[Leftovers]

quotes

`We humans have flourished this much by isolating ourselves from nature. While we receive blessings from nature, we steal from it, and even if nature is destroyed, we will not be destroyed. We became the most superior race on this planet probably because of this one sin only we humans carry.

`We can no longer be a part of nature. In its place, we have gained ways to even destroy nature, this whole planet. However, from the nature's perspective, this is evil. The world itself is a form of life, so it has the will to protect itself from us. But it does not have senses. So---it creates a presence, separated from nature like us, to remonstrate us.

[...]

`Nature, the earth, possesses a will. That is why it still exists and tries to stay beautiful. The problem isn't that we can't feel it. It's that the standard of what nature thinks is beautiful and the standard of what humans believe is beautiful are the same.

`An existence which the world created to sense for it. These are what we usually call spirits. They are a transcendental species existing on another plane different from the remaining spirits of animals in the present world. The True Ancestors are one type of these spirits. They are born with the purpose to punish humans, so they only see humans as evil. Much as we think vampires who prey upon humans are evil, they view humans who prey upon nature as evil.

[...]

`---Humans are only enemies to the True Ancestors. As part of nature, no, as those whose power is linked to nature itself, their power has no limits. In the long history of the Church, there are only a few records of fighting against the True Ancestors. They get their powers from the world itself. Therefore in order to kill them, a conceptual weapon with the power to kill the world is needed.

`Of course, such a weapon does not exist. So that means their 'death' cannot be caused by external factors

Shinso, True Ancestor.
That's what the new representatives of the planet were called. Because of one flaw, the population of fairies who received flesh was decreasing. Sucking blood. Maybe the True Ancestors, who lusted after blood from the subjects they ruled and punished, were wrong from the beginning.
It was an unbalanced system and there wasn't enough to be divided evenly, so in turn, their numbers decreased. Even so, the True Ancestors battled on.
Even after the evil king of the moon was gone, they fought, ruthlessly battling the demons who tainted the planet. However...
Human blood is the most poisonous. Especially for fairies. Once they take in human blood... they become demons.

They were created by nature, which had no tangible method of self-defense toward humans. Therefore, they are extensions of nature.
"If mankind is to be ruled, let man be the model." Under this premise, they were created with a mind and body structure similar to humans.

[...]

Though the True Ancestors possess godlike abilities, the fact that human ideas had no influence on their creation means they are not a type of Divine Spirit. They are an existence desired by the world, but not by humans. Because of this, they have gradually gone into hiding and dwindled in numbers.

`I do not understand. What I do know, though, is that your process is not very effective. After you were born as the ultimate being, the ones born after you were all too imperfect. You were the only one that went right, and all the other True Ancestors were just failures, weren't they? So you decided to modify this. The True Ancestors are just a phenomenon that occurs by need, but you taught them how to create it with their own hands. The reason is simple. You desperately needed a True Ancestor of the same degree of purity as yourself."

[...]

`Generally, the True Ancestors are accepted as a spirit of nature. That's why the beast of Alaya won't oppose them. The True Ancestors are more than just an enemy of the human race. They are the keepers of nature as well. Our subconsciousness both accepts and denies the monster called the True Ancestors, so Alaya's beast does not recognize them as a target of elimination."

Any True Ancestor aside from the very first one is artificial in some way or another. Arcueid is an Ancestor who was created even though there was really no need for her.

大抵は､そろそろ新しい真祖という個体ができるぞ、という時に他の真祖が「今回はこういうことなんで､こういう役割に合った者にしよう」と言って粘土で形を造るというか、輪郭を決めるのですが。

Whenever another True Ancestor can be created, the other Ancestors get together and say "Well, things are like this right now, so we need someone who can take this role" and then mold the new one.

Arcueid was originated from nothingness -- a product to realized the pointless goal of "the strongest True Ancestor"... there are a few other secrets, but...

Couple of thoughts.

As far as Gaia's intentions went, it seems the True Ancestors' role as part of its counter force was meant to be regulating humanity and its (negative) impact on the planet. Since they're extensions of nature and can change it with just their thought, that janitor work could have been performed in a way that could be considered a natural disaster (kinda like CGs), but since they carried the flaw of the vampiric impulse and had to use most of their power to suppress it, maybe they never got around to be too useful in that way, since otherwise almost invincible beings would just be notable overall in lording over humanity and kicking it around*. (Tale does say they fought humans up to and after CM was defeated, but not everyone takes it that seriously)

Then, given that new True Ancestors are created specifically in order to perform a certain role or function, like Arcueid being created to destroy the fallen ones and DAs, and assuming they didn't just sit around doing nothing much, what could other specific roles that need a super-fairy to carry them out be? Or is there some kind of prerequisite for the creation of TAs to be possible, and that is part of why their numbers kept dwindling even though they generally only had to deal with the blood-sucking impulse becoming too strong?

*though there's interesting contrast with the other alien-based rulers of humanity that did depend on them to exist, plus the distinction of Tsukihime and Fate worlds is that in the latter human order is pulsing strong and in the former it's being ■■■■ and DAA - and consequently TA - exist...

also >>>>"humanity's sin"<<<<

[You]

Maybe "protect location X" ?
Or "destroy these aliens"

[Mcjon01]

Was Arcueid created specifically to destroy demon lords, or was she created when the other TAs got bored and decided to see what popped out when they twisted all the dials on their Easy-Make Oven to eleven and then just ended up getting shoved into that role after?

[Leftovers]

Maybe "protect location X" ?
Or "destroy these aliens"

Imagining TA society is difficult. Their roles can be CF-like adjustments to threats or just something related to a function of the planet like maintaining a realm, but then they all gave that up and went back to the castle once Arcueid reconstructed it?

Was Arcueid created specifically to destroy demon lords, or was she created when the other TAs got bored and decided to see what popped out when they twisted all the dials on their Easy-Make Oven to eleven and then just ended up getting shoved into that role after?

She was born in the 12th century when there were many fallen True Ancestors.@
` The True Ancestors could not ignore their fallen kin nor the Dead Apostles increasing in number.@
` That's why they created something solely for killing.@
` Without a need for anything else, the most pure True Ancestor created for punishment.@
` That is the True Ancestor called Arcueid.@

She is a True Ancestor, born in the 12th Century for the sole purpose of hunting those True Ancestors that had fallen and become demon lords.

Specifically for that role seems to have more explicit statements going for it.

[GhostWolf]

It seems that plan backfired a little

[You]

I was biking up the hill and was thinking that in prisma, the Assassin Card is 100% 100 faced Hassan
But when Shinji was using it, the NP was Dead Melody Heartbeat and it didn't seem like 100 faced Hassan.
So then either the HS in the Assassin card changed when it went to Ilya's world or Shinji was able to modify the Assassin card while using it. It's also possible Julian modded the Assassin card so it'd fit Shinji better, but if he did that, wouldn't the mods have stayed for when Ilya installed it since the mods would have been on the card?
Either way, we know that 100 faced's clones probably don't have their own Zabaniya's because that would be p OP.
We also see in the panels that Shinji's Assassin has decoy abilities using the bungie cords and stuff which is kind of similar to how when Ilya includes Assassin Ruby becomes a copy of her. So they both have decoy powers.
Therefore, it seems that Shinji's Assassin card was indeed the 100 face hassan. But somehow because of his "Wakame-powers" (perhaps Pharble Mantasm) he was able to create a copy of the 5th War Hassan's NP using the powers of the 4th War Hassan.
Because those bungie cord daggers sure look like seaweed in the sea.

Shinji strong.

[Leftovers]

A demonic sword from the Nibelungen.
A cursed Noble Phantasm that brings ruin to its possessor.
It is a demonic sword handed down the family that killed the Northern European hero Sigurd, and it is a Noble Phantasm possessed by the dragon Fafnir.
It has a strong curse of "revenge", but it also guides its possessors to ruin.
Demonic swords and holy swords contain both glory and destruction, but this Noble Phantasm only brings ruin to its possessor.

By nature, the immortal Dead Apostles are tranquil beings, but as Enhance is still almost human his vindictiveness knows no bounds.

He fights using the demonic sword Avenger, which he inherited (stole) from the Apostle he replaced, and a gun that was manufactured by the Church.

The black vampire unloaded his shotgun with a snap of his wrist, while the Demonic sword transformed itself to the next stage. Although he was soaked in a curse that even wrinkles the girl's brow, the black vampire's piercing eyes were those of a human.

WMG: Dainsleif is Enhance's sword, taken from a DAA's hoard just like Louvre's mace.

[You]

Is Dainself even cool enough to get a second form like rongho

[LJ3]

Wtf is this shit about Dainslief being the downfall of Sigurd

but whatever, this is a nice refresher

what was Lourve's mace again

[Vacha]

The black vampire unloaded his shotgun with a snap of his wrist, while the Demonic sword transformed itself to the next stage. Although he was soaked in a curse that even wrinkles the girl's brow, the black vampire's piercing eyes were those of a human.

where is this from?

[Leftovers]

Prelude I.

what was Lourve's mace again

Rare and super stronk artifact from his stockpile of mystic codes and conceptual weapons that Lorelei thought Satsujinki stole.

Is Dainself even cool enough to get a second form like rongho

Clearly it scales with the user's desire for ｒｅｖｅｎｇｅ

[Ereus]

I wanna see lugalbanda the older myth than gil

[mewarmo990]

what could other specific roles that need a super-fairy to carry them out be? Or is there some kind of prerequisite for the creation of TAs to be possible, and that is part of why their numbers kept dwindling even though they generally only had to deal with the blood-sucking impulse becoming too strong?

threats to World that don't originate from humanity still count, right?

I always assumed the bloodsucking impulse was inherited from Crimson Moon but I could be wrong because I don't remember if it actually said that anywhere.

too much to reread...

the distinction of Tsukihime and Fate worlds is that in the latter human order is pulsing strong and in the former it's being ■■■■ and DAA - and consequently TA - exist...

I don't know why I keep seeing it pop on this forum but there's nothing that says TA don't exist in Fate worlds. EXTRA even described them iirc.

Dead Apostles are just weaker in Fate worlds; they're described in a vague meta way of being anti-human history, corroborated by statements like the one about the pulsing human order in Labyrinth. So when history is stronger, they are weaker.

[Arha]

Bloodsucking was inherited from Crimson Moon, yes. Flawed template. Shouldn't have used him.

[mewarmo990]

I wanna see lugalbanda the older myth than gil

Back in December I speculated that Gil might be called the "oldest hero" for reasons other than chronologically being the oldest, since he wasn't. I don't really wanna rehash it again but in short

I figured since he is the one who began the movement that turned mankind into an independent entity from the rest of the world, the Throne literally started with him. (And then the Throne went back and plucked older souls since it's not constrained by the linearity of time)

- - - Updated - - -

Making his Oldest Hero epithet very much literal.

Also wtf when did Headcanon thread get deleted???