Hi Beast Lair Community =P
I would like to start a discussion discussion what is Rin Tohsaka. I've read several forums and the options vary between bixexual, bisexual leaning towards males, bi-curious and straight. I would also like to affront this topic in all 3 routes (though of course the fate H scene and unlimited blade works good ending are likely to receive more attention).
Well, I will start with my opinion. I think Rin Tohsaka is straight (or bi-curious at most). The reason some people say it she's bisexual is mainly because of the H-scene in the fate route. I'll state some of the misgivings I have towards this scene and why to me it doesn't make Rin bisexual:
First of all, the author Nasu didn't write that scene. As noted in the complete materials, Nasu didn't actually write the script for the fate sex scene.
1.Why didn't Rin tell Shirou about mana transfer earlier? There's absolutely no valid reason. Transferring mana would save Saber's life (and before the whole scene Rin had told Shirou Saber would most likely disappear due to lack of mana and gave him no answer when he asked if she could be saved), so it would be logical to inform him of such possibility as early as possible.
However, if mana transfer involved sex, she had a very good reason not to tell him about it. She had feelings for Shirou, so she definitely didn't want him to have sex with Saber, unless it was absolutely unavoidable, causing either Rin or Shirou to die.
2. The whole scene seems like pointless fanservice. The fact they went for the H to give mana to saber instead of making Rin the master of Saber and let her get lots of mana still baffles me after all this years.
3. It is a life-or-death scene in which Rin is forced to have sex with saber and enjoys it. The question would be be, does it make her bisexual? When 2 girls in an eroge touch each other and enjoy it then they’re bi?
I don’t think so. I strongly believe the result would have been the same with every single heroine in the game. It’s an eroge and I’ve read a few VNs where 2 straight girls enjoy sex together. I’ve also watched even more hentai (not that different from eroge) in which straight girls (usually sisters) that love the same dude end up having sex together and enjoy it very much. In my opinion it was mainly fanservice for an eroge game, not to mention the newer versions of Realta Nua completely remove that scene, making it non-existent.
So basically, It's not a threesome if she's there touching saber with a bored expression. This is an eroge, there is no fucking way a girl can touch another and don't make it seem it's glorius, what kind of a H-scene would it be otherwise?
Also, Sakura got a similar treatment in Heaven's Feel while watching Rin get raped (she got turned on by her own sister and maybe it was faservice for the H-scene. There's no need to assume Sakura's bi, it could just be Nasu's way of making H-scenes (all 3 heroines had a sexual experience between themselves after all).
4. Shirou was there in the whole scene (she even kisses him for absolutely no reason before starting "preparing" saber). Rin knows Shirou's watching and she watches them have sex afterwards. Her arousal may be in part due to Shirou.
Now I'll state why I think the anime is just Rin X Shirou:
- Nasu said the anime occurs in a different universe with different laws. Mana transfer, as shown in episode 20, doesn’t happen through sex. Things can't be taken from the Nasuverse cause it doesn’t apply to this universe. This universe uses Realta Nua method.
We can’t assume Rin is even bi-curious either as we can’t take anything from other routes given this is a completely different universe and other routes would happen in a different way as well.
Nasu said that in the anime the ones in a relationship are Rin and Shirou. The anime shows Rin is straight here. She is 100% focused on Shirou as a love partner. Then again, you can’t take any info from other routes cause this is a different universe with different rules and even the characters are different. In other routes there would be no mana transfer through sex and given Rin’s behaviour
Nasu also said the anime changes were relevant and that actions speak. Now, let’s see some of those changes just on the 7 minute (without credits) OVA.
1. In the VN when talking about the mana transfer all 3 of them are together. Shirou asks what his mana boost will be like and Saber says she wants to know as well how Shirou will boost mana. Rin blushes a lot.
In the anime this is a private conversation between Shirou and Rin. Saber just stands 20 meters away looking into blank space.
How do I interpret this?: They’re having a private conversation and Saber knows that. Them being together means it’s just the 2 of them in love related matters. Saber is an outsider there, and waits for them to finish.
2. In the VN Rin pulls saber (last CG). In the anime she grabs Shirou’s arm with both her arms, pulling him with one arm afterwards. Again, this shows Rin and Shirou are the happy couple and removes possible doubts.
Now I'll state why I think the UBW good ending is Shirou's harem and Rin doesn't do Saber (regardless of Rin's sexuality).
1. Saber:
Shirou and Rin love each other so whoever saber likes will be the deciding factor. In a harem several people have feelings for someone. Who does saber like?
There is one whole route dedicated to the love between Shirou and Arturia. In "the last episode" saber waits for thousands of years for Shirou and cries when she sees him.
In the UBW anime Rin says saber is way to dedicated to Shirou. In episode 23 saber says "Shirou, you are still my master", in episode 24 before dying saber says "I am happy because Shirou has Rin". In the V.N saber flirts with Shirou as Rin states and she says she stays just for him.
If we look the other way we'll see that after Rin is forced to have sex with saber in the fate route H-scene saber's mind is 100% set on Shirou, it's as if nothing ever happened with Rin. This proves that no matter what Rin does, saber never sees Rin as a love interest.
In the good ending the bond between Shirou and saber is even stronger than that of the true ending, strong enough for saber to kill Rin while destroying the Grail without the need of a command seal, although that didn't happen as Archer saved Rin in the last second.
So we have a saber class servant that willingly states "Shirou, you are still my master" (episode 23) while having another master, she willingly almost kills her real master and in the visual novel after Rin saves her she flirts with her master's boyfriend. The only difference between UBW true and good endings is that in the Good ending Shirou gives points to saber. That's the reason she wishes to stay, she feels Shirou really cares for him in the good ending because of the increased affection that Shirou has for her.
In Fate Hollow Ataraxia (the sequel to the VN) eclipse scenes we are shown that Heaven's Feel is Shirou's harem because Rider is fucking him.
The eclipse/hentai scenes are quite different though from the actual game. They aren't part of Fate Hollow Ataraxia. They really are a fully-fledged continuations of the original game endings as they are written to literally continue them. They are something like a plus and are clearly written to continue FSN endings (with the exception of Caren, which takes place in the actual game). Nasu made a confirmation of them being canon.
The Rider scene happens after HF. Basically it is revealed that Rider falls in love with Shirou and likes meeting him to have sex with him. In her eclipse scene she confesses she loves him. Rider says she thinks about him when she's alone but she feels bad about Sakura.
Is it something new? Not really, what happened is that we got a confirmation. Remember when Rider said she is sucking regularly someone's blood and that she can't let Sakura Know? That is mentioned somewhere at the end of Heaven's Feel in the original game. She thought that after 2 years living together with Shirou and Sakura. They're the only ones living together in the Emiya house (Rin lives in London). So it has to be Shirou as she thinks Sakura must not know and she does it regularly. And how does Rider suck blood? She just bites you unless you're Shirou. In Heaven's Feel Route She finds Shirou so juicy she has sex with him as well. The rest of the people just got the bite.
There is another scene which is very interesting, the saber scene. In the game saber comes from the UBW good ending universe. Her eclipse scene is her going inside the bathroom while Shirou is bathing. Shirou tells her to wait but she tells him not to wrorry, she undresses and bathes with him. After a while Shirou gets turned on and he says he's unable to resist his instincts, so he they have sex. Saber was very happy Shirou would allow her to make love to him.
Unlike Rider, it isn't so clear this will happen in the UBW good ending but knowing Nasu already gave him a harem in Heaven's Feel and the way UBW good end happened I'd say there's a big chance of that happening there.
Then as I see it Saber's hentai scene most likely happens after UBW good ending. It can't be the fate route as the first time Shirou and Saber have sex alone is the night before she dies, where he was so nervous he didn't even know what to do. There aren't more times to have sex as she dies afterwards. Saber in Fate Hollow comes from UBW good ending. The way the H-scene occurs makes it seem they're not in a formal relationship (Saber loves Shirou but it seems similar to the Rider scene where she can't bear it any longer and goes to meet him when she finds some opportunity) and that Saber is fine and isn't gonna die. It shouldn't come as a surprise though. In UBW Good ending Nasu hints strongly Shirou is gonna have sex with Saber. Some hints are that Shirou's magical energy (semen) is needed to maintain saber as Rin's energy isn't enough, Saber says in the VN she's staying for him, Rin tells saber not to flirt with him and to stop looking at each other for so long. Basically one of the typical harem endings in a porn game. There are no hints of Rin and Saber having sex in Unlimited good ending as nothing is ever hinted/mentioned in either the eclipse scenes or the game Ataraxia itself that may point out they ever have a sexual relationship over there. Also, Rin provides magic to Saber thanks to her link and no sex is needed as she's an experienced magi.
I've touched both scenes (Rider and Saber) because they are quite similar. Unlike Rin and Sakura, Rider and Saber have to go meet their man under more rare circumstances as they aren't actually dating him. On the other hand, Rin and Sakura are in a formal relationship with Shirou as their scenes show. Also, considering that Rider "betrays" her master Sakura (for whom she would do anything and is very devoted to her) as HF's route suggests (I explained it before) and the eclipse scene confirms, it would make no sense for saber not to do the same in the good ending. She's just as in love as Rider (if not more). By the end of UBW good ending she flirts with Shirou and looks at him for a while with a love expression, something Rin doesn't miss. The fact that she wants to stay only when Shirou gives her love points (visual novel system) is another hint. Seriously, even if Shirou didn't have to give Saber mana as he does she would still pursue Shirou, just like Rider does (and no mana is needed in Rider's case).
Notice that having a harem is what Nasu always does for Shirou (with the exception of the Fate Route, where in the "last episode" in Realta Nua it is revealed he just gets saber).
In UBW true ending Lluvia likes him very much and Nasu mentioned they will have adventures even after graduation; in UBW good ending saber loves him (VN, Rin tells them not to flirt); In Heaven's Feel Rider loves him (amazing love confession in Ataraxia); In Ataraxia he gets every single heroine plus Caren and Bazett, it's the ultimate harem in the true ending.
2. Saber is Rin's servant.
If Rin had set saber free or given her back to Shirou, Rin would have had to have sex with Saber out of necessity to give her mana (as there would be no master- servant relationship that would be the only way). Now, since saber and Rin maintained their pact Rin has no need to have sex with her (as she supplies mana constantly thanks to her immense magical knowledge) and it would be Shirou that comes to be in a enviable position as his “seed” would be needed to maintain the girls (either through Rin or directly to saber if that wasn’t enough).
The situation between Rin and Saber is the same one as Sakura-Rider in Heaven's Feel true ending and they don't have sex (because it's not necessary thanks to the master-servant link)
3. Rin loves Shirou a lot.
In Fate Hollow Ataraxia (sequel to the VN) she just wants to be a couple with Shirou [like when Rin invites Shirou to go to her private pool in her house. Shirou says he's gonna go tell Saber and Rin gets super mad. She tells him it's a couple's date, so just the 2 of them will go]. In the anime [episode 11] all 3 of them go out together, but that wasn't even close to a real date. Rin loves Sakura very much [you how much if you read Heaven's Feel] and at that time Rin still believed he was gonna end up with Sakura. Later in the VN Shirou confesses his love for Rin, but before that she barely even considered going out with him.
At the end of post 21 (page 2 of this thread) I link 2 very good examples of this that are a must-watch to understand Rin better.
Fate Hollow Ataraxia also shows a glimpse of future Rin (minutes 9-16 of the youtube video linked after this paragraph). She's no longer tsundere, she's just lovestruck. At some point future Rin says: Rather than becoming happy together, I will, with no questions asked, and more than anyone else, give him happiness. It also raises more reasons for Rin to save Saber in the good ending Sunny Days. In the VN in order to reach that ending Shirou has to give Saber at least 4 points, which means he cares about her a lot more than in the true ending. In the VN Rin says to Shirou "you are too kind to Saber" and in the good ending she says "you want her to stay, so it's alright". She also says both of them will be training Shirou, so it wouldn't be too far-fetched to think Shirou's happiness plays a big role in Rin saving Saber in the good ending, especially if we consider other references: in the fate route once she realises he's fallen in love with saber and there's no way it's gonna change she helps him plan a date with her because that's what makes Shirou happy. She couldn't save her at the end cause she was severely injured and wasn't there; the very setting in Fate Hollow is that saber is dead and Shirou's sad because of that. Rin is able to resurrect her and she gives her to Shirou (Shirou and Saber weren'teven dating, but she gives her to him because it makes him happy. Upon seing Saber Shirou has tears in his eyes. Rin goes to London alone as Shirou and her aren't datingg. Shirou becomes Saber's master this time (and it remains in the true ending) as in this setting for different reasons there is no need to give her mana so he can manage alone without help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9thish4tmk4
4. Rin's undeniable harem would have been Shirou- Rin - Archer, but Archer didn't accept.
One more thing to consider is that she asks archer to remain in this world. This happens in both the good and true ending (right before the good ending would come archer's scene). Think that if archer had accepted Rin's proposal both the true and happy endings would be the same.
A) The true ending becomes Rin-Archer-Shirou
B) The good ending becomes Rin-Archer-Shirou
By asking archer to stay afterwards saber would have left this world had archer accepted (there's not enough mana for both of them and even Rin knows saber isn't selfish to stay that way, by asking archer she's in a way betraying saber, that's why she thinks "I know I shouldn't ask" (but she does ask...) and archer says "I do not know if you will keep your contract with saber, but I am nor qualified for that")
These quotes are taken from the VN.
In page 2 of this thread I add new arguments in post 21. Post 39 also focuses on the relationship between Rin and Archer in the true ending. Rin still continues thinking about him even after 2 years have passed. This should happen in the good ending as well as the final farewell happens in both endings.
If we move onto Heaven's Feel Rin thinks something very interesting after returning to the Emiya House (after spending 1 year in London): I've been going out with boys but whenever I am with them I can't concentrate cause that fool's face appears in my mind. Am I in love with him?
In this route Rin and Shirou didn't have any romance moments, yet she thinks about Shirou, not Saber, Rider... (not to mention she says she's been going out with boys, not girls).
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Originally Posted by touka
