Kiritsugu vs Shirou

[Prix with a Silent X]

You have really good points. Im agree with you that he is certanly a fascinating character , but you dont have to be likeable to be fascinating

Off topic, is your avatar an ArcherX Rin pic, i cant see the whole thing..XD

I assume you mean mean since Glow's is Okabe and Kurisu from Steins;Gate. And yes, it is, at the moment (it's a fairly new avatar for me -- I'm usually the Gilgamesh or Saber or Enkidu enthusiast but I'm having a mood).

Here's the whole picture:

Spoiler:

- - - Updated - - -

and to think he would never have known that happiness if either of them had never suffered

makes u think

It does make me think and my head hurts. Mean.

[TheSeaDragon]

yes, it was your one i meant
wow, thats some good art there. Where you found it .

[Prix with a Silent X]

I think I found it on safebooru or one of the other boorus.

[RoydGolden]

Back on topic, cause this is slowly turning into a Uroboichi bashin trhead, lol.
Kerry ideals can be called shallow and inmature cause , people are not numbers.

Admittedly, it's not entirely that simple. Kiritsugu was certainly childish in how he viewed his ideals, but a rebuttal of that nature strikes me as overly glib and far too broad in its application. I mean, wouldn't you in any given situation want to save more lives rather then less? Kiritsugu's utilitarian reasoning- while horribly extreme in its application- is fundamentally based on that same premise, and not at all as easy to refute as one might think.

[Alternative Ice]

I don't really have any problem with Kerry just the anime only's opinions on him.

Mostly in how they like him and hate Shirou for really shallow reasons.

[Prix with a Silent X]

The thing about utilitarianism is that it only works on an extremely macro- level before it becomes cruel or ruthless to most sensibilities. Government policies or decisions made in dire circumstances of survival and/or war can be decided on a utilitarian basis and most people (in my generalizing opinion) aren't going to take issue with it. However, when you apply utilitarian principles to personal decisions and make decisions for other individuals on the basis of utilitarian principles, you're kind of being an asshole because it doesn't take into account that quality of life and happiness as measures of reason for survival and base numerical survival are not the same thing.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't really have any problem with Kerry just the anime only's opinions on him.

Mostly in how they like him and hate Shirou for really shallow reasons.

??? Is "anime onlys" a group of people here?

[LJ3]

Zero secondaries is a meme about anime first or only people who got into the franchise through that.

derogatory of course, but I say it gently as I am one myself.

Meaner way of pointing out how only starting or watching Zero tends to lead to skewed interpretations on Fate should be

[Prix with a Silent X]

I saw UBW before Zero and anime first but I read the Zero translation we have so that I could feel more capable of writing Empty Gold without being eaten by hyenas.

- - - Updated - - -

But yeah, actually, I can see how that would be. I actually only like Zero, I think, because of the order in which I was exposed. I would have absolutely hated Zero and not bothered with a follow-up if I had seen it first. As it is, I love it as an example of tragedy followed by something that is less tragic/hypothetically hopeful and sort of a sins of the father kind of thing actually articulated.

[TheSeaDragon]

good point . But i guess is not just the core idea , but also how cold he is about it.
After murder a disabled man, yeah, a jerk, but still a disabled man at the moment and his even more defenseless fiance , he doesnt act like it was a sacrifice he had to do in order to the greater good. He has no remorse whatsoever , like he just stepped on a pair of Cockroaches
I dont know if you guys are familiar with WATCHMEN, is an interesting story about morally grey areas

[Prix with a Silent X]

I dont know if you guys are familiar with WATCHMEN, is an interesting story about morally grey areas

Kill me.

No but I can't really blame a person for hating Kayneth but on the other hand it's sort of reprehensible that he used even skewed love against someone to kill them.

[RoydGolden]

The thing about utilitarianism is that it only works on an extremely macro- level before it becomes cruel or ruthless to most sensibilities. Government policies or decisions made in dire circumstances of survival and/or war can be decided on a utilitarian basis and most people (in my generalizing opinion) aren't going to take issue with it. However, when you apply utilitarian principles to personal decisions and make decisions for other individuals on the basis of utilitarian principles, you're kind of being an asshole because it doesn't take into account that quality of life and happiness as measures of reason for survival and base numerical survival are not the same thing.

I agree with you that somebody who was a true utilitarian in every aspect of life would be basically an inhuman asshole (like Kiritsugu, more or less) but bringing in factors like "quality of life" and "happiness" don't change the fundamental principle. It merely means you have more factors then just "life" to take into consideration when plugging in the utilitarian calculus. The basic idea of sacrificing the few for the many remains unchanged, whether what's being sacrificed is "lives" or "happiness".

[TheSeaDragon]

??? Is "anime onlys" a group of people here?[/QUOTE]

oh, yeah, people that think Zero is superior cause is Darker and Fate is about lame highschoolers sadly exist

[Prix with a Silent X]

I agree with you that somebody who was a true utilitarian in every aspect of life would be basically an inhuman asshole (like Kiritsugu, more or less) but bringing in factors like "quality of life" and "happiness" don't change the fundamental principle. It merely means you have more factors then just "life" to take into consideration when plugging in the utilitarian calculus. The basic idea of sacrificing the few for the many remains unchanged, whether what's being sacrificed is "lives" or "happiness".

But, you see, this is why utilitarianism is stupid. Because "greater good" is the reigning principle but determining whether "quality of life" or just "number of people alive" is the "greater good" is... pretty... um. Okay I have a headache and let's just suffice to say that utilitarianism made my brain hurt and made me mad even in college.

- - - Updated - - -

oh, yeah, people that think Zero is superior cause is Darker and Fate is about lame highschoolers sadly exist

Oh, I know. I just was tangled in the syntax of what he was saying.

[Laserman]

I don't really have any problem with Kerry just the anime only's opinions on him.

Mostly in how they like him and hate Shirou for really shallow reasons.

oh, yeah, people that think Zero is superior cause is Darker and Fate is about lame highschoolers sadly exist

Spoiler:

:^)

[TheSeaDragon]

I dont hate zero, but i dont think it should be anyone introduction to the nasuverse. It can create some false expectations

[Laserman]

I tried to say that to someone and I got into a argument about it.

- - - Updated - - -

Because that's what it is? When something's called edgy lieu of "dark", it's typically not as a compliment. As in, it's used for something trying to be dark or mature but instead coming off as silly or juvenile.

Ah, I see now.

[Alternative Ice]

I use anime only's more to refer to people who have only watched zero and ubw, have no intention of ever trying out the source material and who's general opinion can be summed up as "ZERO IS THE BEST THING TYPE MOON HAS EVAR CREATED WAY BETTER THAN THOSE SHITTY PORN GAMES" or "SHIROUS SO STOOPID AND SUCH A STEREOTYPICAL SHONEN PROTAG NOT LIKE KIRITSUGU WHO KICKS ASS AND USES GUNS AND ISNT A HIGHSCHOOLER".

I'm not talking about anyone on this forum so much as people on MAL and the Youtube comments section.

[Prix with a Silent X]

the Youtube comments section.

I have found the Achilles' heel of your plan.

[TheSeaDragon]

really. How so

well, im sure there is people that started with Zero, and still was able to enjoy Shirou story afterwards, a lot of peoplel actually. It depends of the mindset
But anyways, i would no recommend it as introduction.

[RoydGolden]

But, you see, this is why utilitarianism is stupid. Because "greater good" is the reigning principle but determining whether "quality of life" or just "number of people alive" is the "greater good" is... pretty... um. Okay I have a headache and let's just suffice to say that utilitarianism made my brain hurt and made me mad even in college.

Have to say, I don't really feel the force of that dilemma. When the question is proposed that way, it seems downright obvious that what humans value is the quality of life and not merely "life" for its own sake. And if your point is that choosing an initial set of values is always at least somewhat arbitrary then that applies just as well to any moral system, not merely Utilitarianism.

I mean, I agree that Utilitarianism taken to extremes is monstrous, but the same applies to just about any ethical system. The issue is not so much with Utilitarianism itself, but with following any philosophy to the point of sacrificing common sense and abnegating your own personal responsibility in the face of some illusory "objectivity". Better to embrace the inconsistencies of morality then try to paper them all away in the name of some "objective, universal truth".