Zero Fun thread

[Trubo]

What's the point of adding Medea Lily if they were planning to give Irisviel for free...

Because, in nearly every case, Medea Lily is flat out better.

[Mcjon01]

Medea Lily is flat

There's the problem Captain

[Canon]

She is most certainly not

[Mcjon01]

Next to Iri she might as well be a pancake

[Raylen Cypher]

She is most certainly not

look, there's no way she can even compare

[Arashi_Leonhart]

Next to Iri she might as well be a pancake

insert euphemism for demon pillar explanation joke here

[castor212]

i sleep one night and we are now talking about medea lily's chest

[Marmadillo]

conversations naturally turn to more interesting subjects

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Kariya's no hero by any means, but in the fucked up world of Fate/Zero, his wish for Sakura's happiness is still one of the most genuinely admirable IMO.

nazis were really big on animal protection

[castor212]

This is all started with an innocent question.

realtalk i didnt think this thread would go beyond 2 or 3 pages

kariya stuff

tbh if he wasnt like this i would like zero a bit less
karia is necessary loser
do i have shitty taste

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cool answer

mature answer

actual answer

thank you for these

[Laserman]

realtalk i didnt think this thread would go beyond 2 or 3 pages

Neither did I. But look where we are.

[Altima of the Gates]

Still, even if Kariya hadn't been a green-eyed derelict and actually made an effort to communicate with Tokiomi effectively, would it have changed anything?

That block of text mentions Tokiomi would have turned Zouken down if he knew Zouken's true plans for Sakura, but it also highlights what a boner he had for the though of a magically trained Sakura. I get the impression he would have very much a no use crying over spilt milk/got to break a few eggs to make an omelette kind of reation.

The problem is that by the time Kariya knows anything, it's too late. Tokiomi and Aoi saw him as a guy who was just a failure who ran away from magecraft like a sissy, none of them knew that it did take guts to walk out on Zouken. Aoi at the very least knows he has a good relationship with her daughters, and has known him since they were children. She never thought to ask why he went pale when she told him (like actually ask). And the conversation at the park basically said the two completely missed each other in terms of their stances and worldview.

Kariya was too in shock and seeing red to calm down and explain things, but considering Aoi was in full magus wife mode in self denial and Rin was going along with it too, that it would likely be hard to press the issue and convince her that her husband had made a mistake. Because, as the book implied several times, Aoi doesn't go against Tokiomi on any decision or speak up in opposition, pretty much ever. Which is odd why that character profile said that Aoi's temperament was more like Sakura's, because Sakura does speak up against Shirou quite a few times.

And Tokiomi is also equally as likely to listen that the Makiri magecraft is a sham, because he literally went full in on this, enough to completely cut off all contact with Sakura (which kinda makes it much easier for a person to lie about their promises Tokiomi, old chap).

Further, what exactly is Tokiomi gonna do after the fact when Sakura is now a perfect hostage? At worst, you'd get the spiel Rin gives in HF about preserving Sakura's dignity as a magus by euthanasia, and the other options aren't much better than that.

So again, the big issue is that the situation reached a point where, considering the mentality of the people involved it was hard to break the situation into a net positive.

[forumghost]

Sakura is hardly a 'Perfect Hostage' that early on. The problems in HF were caused by the worms beeing in so long that they had become fused with her nerves, and Zouken planting his Core worm in her heart- Neither of which had happened when Kariya found out about her being handed over. If he'd talked to them straight away instead of playing LN Protag, chances are Sakura could have been saved and de-wormed in short order.

Of course then Kariya wouldn't get to be the hero and win Aoi-sama's love, so...

[Alternative Ice]

People have probably beat this topic to death, but Zouken is the head of the PTA of the local school district. Zouken doesn't go around town being an evil bastard for shits and giggles. Can Tokiomi really be faulted for not considering that the guy who has acted cordially to his family and known for having a good reputation in town was worming Sakura?

Meanwhile, Kariya, who knows firsthand what his family's magecraft entails, doesn't even bother to tell either Aoi or Tokiomi just what exactly is happening to Sakura. Instead, he decides to use the HGW to try and kill Tokiomi and get together with Aoi and the children like some sort of hero.

yeah how could tokiomi know that zouken was evil or how the matou magecraft works i mean its not like their families have lived in the same city together for over a hundred years or worked together to make a giant magic ritual or regularly fight each other in magical duels to the death

[Cyronyx]

I just straight up dislike Kariya.

He's the type of character that makes you feel sad, but not because you're sorry for him, but because he could have done things so much better if he had just acted sooner instead of doing it that late. In fact, I think (aside from killing Rin's mom and Berserker in the Grail War) he didn't contribute at all to the story aside from saying "Zouken's a monster." And "I must save Sakura and Aoi."

He is just so hopeless a character. Even more hopeless than Enjou Tomoe. And his origin is legitimately "Worthlessness".

[Wandering Swordwoman]

Yeah Kariya just wanted to take Aoi with him. After saving Sakura and killing Tokiomi "I saved Sakura for you, Aoi-san" "OMG, Kariya you're my hero" "Let's run away Aoi-san. Just leave your stupid husband." Just like his delusion

[TheSeaDragon]

I like it for waht it is
But i not think is the best thing ever just because is Darker , Actually my issue is not with Zero itself, but with some kinds of Zero fans

I like FSN more but i cant hate Zero, it has Iri

[Altima of the Gates]

Sakura is hardly a 'Perfect Hostage' that early on. The problems in HF were caused by the worms beeing in so long that they had become fused with her nerves, and Zouken planting his Core worm in her heart- Neither of which had happened when Kariya found out about her being handed over. If he'd talked to them straight away instead of playing LN Protag, chances are Sakura could have been saved and de-wormed in short order.

Of course then Kariya wouldn't get to be the hero and win Aoi-sama's love, so...

You're assuming a lot here, especially when Zouken says, in plain English, that he already put his familiars inside her the moment Kariya tries to confront him. It's too late. Nor are we ever told there was a specific time he put the core of his soul in her heart, only about the grail shards from Iri's vessel. That argument would stick better if you said that planting the grail shard in her heart correlates to being a grail vessel, ad thus when he supplanted himself there, but she still ends up being a vessel even when that is ripped from her chest, so I'd say the soul jar was always there as insurance, rather than added later.

But let's say that you have one point here and that it mattered that the familiars had intertwined with her nerves later on in the argument of how hard it would be to save her.

The issue is that his familiars had been inside her in the first place, and he has already started having them work in a parasitic relationship in her body. Frankly, that is checkmate. Moronic as Kariya may be, if he could just walk out the door with Sakura by just being sneaky with Zouken, he would have. How exactly, will Tokiomi deal with Zouken without any possible harm coming to Sakura? Unless Zouken literally forgets he has control over those familiars.
Let's play Devil's Advocate here, if literally all that was on his mind was making Tokiomi look like an idiot by presenting Sakura back to Aoi, why bother with a plan that inevitably will kill him when he doesn't have to?

In his mind theoretically he would getting to be the hero, Tokiomi looks like a chump, AND he lives to mack some sweet Zenjou ass.

Dislike Kariya as much as you want, but the argument doesn't hold water.

[You]

this is why i don't talk about this stuff
because i'm convinced too easily
now i'm going to read the next post and be convinced with that too

[Neir]

Let's play Devil's Advocate here, if literally all that was on his mind was making Tokiomi look like an idiot by presenting Sakura back to Aoi, why bother with a plan that inevitably will kill him when he doesn't have to?

In his mind theoretically he would getting to be the hero, Tokiomi looks like a chump, AND he lives to mack some sweet Zenjou ass.

Dislike Kariya as much as you want, but the argument doesn't hold water.

because there's no plan where he alone gets to be the hero and doesn't die

[Kotonoha]

I'm cool and you should give me gacha money

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damn it neir