Fate/Grand Order - English

[Lily Emilio]

Yeah. I'm just annoyed that they took this guy who's canonically the greatest fighter of his age- as in, he literally couldn't use his personal sword if there was a fighter greater than he was, who fought a guy who was invincible as long as the sun was in the sky for the entire day and then kicked his arse the moment the sun went down, and they made his power "i'ma laser this dude". Meanwhile on the yamato end of things there are guys with these ridiculously cool personal skills- two of them get so skilled they can literally attack several times at the same time, one dude whose NP is him just one-shotting his opponent, and so on.

I don't think it's fair to just go by Lancelot's legend and give him some Gil conceptual shenanigans. There are various warriors (especially Asian ones, yes especially Asian martial artists in fiction) and heroes boasting just the same title all over the place, why not them?

The argument about yamato samurai getting cool moves don't really hold up either. Different in fighting style, different in cultural philosophy. Like, are you expecting Lancelot to pull some Iaido with his long sword like a samurai doing it or what?

[eddyak]

I don't think it's fair to just go by Lancelot's legend and give him some Gil conceptual shenanigans. There are various warriors (especially Asian ones, yes especially Asian martial artists in fiction) and heroes boasting just the same title all over the place, why not them?

Yes, but those are just that- boasts. You look all over Eastern legends, and half the blokes who pick up a sword get "UNRIVALLED UNDER HEAVEN AND 'PON EARTH". None of them get a top-level NP whose entire legend is that it can only be wielded by the best fighter that currently exists, and none of them get a skill that means they can pick up a pencil and instantly are an expert in its usage as a weapon.

inb4 john wick servant shenanigans "Killed three men with a fucking pencil!"

The argument about yamato samurai getting cool moves don't really hold up either. Different in fighting style, different in cultural philosophy. Like, are you expecting Lancelot to pull some Iaido with his long sword like a samurai doing it or what?

I'm not expecting anything, but I do want the one guy we've seen specifically stated to be the best fighter of his age to get something that isn't what DW thinks literally every western magic sword wielder has. Hell, he could pick random items from offscreen and just beat his opponent to death with sticks and stones and a balloon sword, for all it matters, but for a guy whose legend has him picking up a stick and curbstomping a group of armoured knights, his NP is unimaginative as hell.

[pinetree]

I'm not expecting anything, but I do want the one guy we've seen specifically stated to be the best fighter of his age to get something that isn't what DW thinks literally every western magic sword wielder has. Hell, he could pick random items from offscreen and just beat his opponent to death with sticks and stones and a balloon sword, for all it matters, but for a guy whose legend has him picking up a stick and curbstomping a group of armoured knights, his NP is unimaginative as hell.

Knight of Owner

A Knight Does Not Die Empty Handed

though. Just because he also has a magic sword his other NP, which is one of the most creative in Fate, doesn't stop existing. And he even uses his beam sword in a different way than everyone else.

I understand that it's easy to forget that Saber Lancelot can do all the cool shit Berserker did in Zero because we just see his boring in-game animations, but I still think Lancelot is a servant defined by his ability rather than firepower.

[Lily Emilio]

None of them get a top-level NP whose entire legend is that it can only be wielded by the best fighter that currently exists

What if I tell you that none of them shown up as servants in Fate yet?

and none of them get a skill that means they can pick up a pencil and instantly are an expert in its usage as a weapon.

.

"The "Sword Devil" Dugu Qiubai has become the invincible and unchallenged swordsman under Heaven, hence he buried his swords here. The heroes of the realm bow before me. Now, my Long Sword is of no use anymore. The agony!"
The first sword: "My first sword was so sharp, strong and fierce that none could withstand it. With it in hand, I strive for mastery by challenging all the heroes of the Northern Plains in my teenage years."
The second sword:"My second sword was violet in hue and flexible in motion. I used it in my 20s. With it, I have mistakenly wounded righteous men. It turned out to be a weapon of doom that caused me to feel remorseful endlessly. I cast it into a deep canyon."
The third sword: "My third sword was heavy and blunt. The uttermost cunning is based on simplicity. With it, I roamed all lands under Heaven unopposed in my 30s."
The fourth sword (represented by a wooden sword): "After the age of 40, I was no longer hampered by any weapon. Grass, trees, bamboos and rocks can all be my swords. Since then, I have developed my skills further, such that gradually I can win battles without reaching for weapons."

If this guy is a heroic spirit he will get the exact same shit but even better cuz he reached the state of "no sword beating swords". His NP will be him picking up rocks and use as swords. Heck, he has a sword style that can counter all kind of fighting styles and weapons in existence and he never has to defend when using it, because no one could even block all of his attacks let alone trying to fight back. His name literally means "Lonely and begging to be defeated". Oh and don't forget a monkey king who defeated even the deities with his extreme skills that he gained the title "Victory Fighting Buddha" (The Buddha who wins every fight) after his journey to the west that Buddhism mantras still cite.

I'm not expecting anything, but I do want the one guy we've seen specifically stated to be the best fighter of his age to get something that isn't what DW thinks literally every western magic sword wielder has. Hell, he could pick random items from offscreen and just beat his opponent to death with sticks and stones and a balloon sword, for all it matters, but for a guy whose legend has him picking up a stick and curbstomping a group of armoured knights, his NP is unimaginative as hell.

Like I already gave you the examples above, whatever Lancelot did in his story wuth his random items is not even special compare to a bunch of stories told by Chinese novels and epics. Expecting special treatment to Lancelot when what you described about his skill is pretty normal in both old and modern wuxia novels in China sounds unreasonable to me. I like Lancelot and I do agree that he deserves better. Heck I think Gawain needs more too. But I believe that giving a specific title to just Lancelot alone is stretching.

[Laserman]

Wow. The kind of imagination that writers in eastern countries had to have to write those kinds of stories back then.

[SpoonyViking]

Like I already gave you the examples above, whatever Lancelot did in his story wuth his random items is not even special compare to a bunch of stories told by Chinese novels and epics.

Perhaps not, but Eddyak's complaint is valid: Lancelot's main NP isn't very imaginative.
(Alternatively, "beam swords are overused and boring".)

ETA: Did you edit your post, or was I just a dumbass? Sorry, I missed that you agreed with him regarding Lancelot's NP.

[Reign]

So every time Cu uses Gae Bolg in this chapter it's the empowered thrown version, right? I don't see the jab on his NP list.

[Iceblade44]

Wow. The kind of imagination that writers in eastern countries had to have to write those kinds of stories back then.

They still write it now, this type of stuff is normal for books in the Wuxia genre

Edit: or was that the Xianxia genre. I know there's a difference between the two but I always forget it.

[SpoonyViking]

Wow. The kind of imagination that writers in eastern countries had to have to write those kinds of stories back then.

Different cultures and philosophies have different expectations of what's exceptional, and thus produce different stories about exceptional people.

ETA: Also - and please, correct me if I'm wrong, Mizukume -, Dugu Qiubai seems to be a modern fictional creation. Just think of the stuff modern fiction writers in the West have come up with, too!

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The thing about that is, none of that matters when he can just be nuked from a mile away by Karna, or Arjuna, or literally anybody with a large scale AoE NP, or all of them put together.

Can he, though? Regular Cú Chulainn already has the survivability of a cockroach, isn't Alter supposed to be not only stronger but to have current!Wolverine-level healing factor?

[Iceblade44]

Different cultures and philosophies have different expectations of what's exceptional, and thus produce different stories about exceptional people.

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Can he, though? Regular Cú Chulainn already has the survivability of a cockroach, isn't Alter supposed to be not only stronger but to have current!Wolverine-level healing factor?

Pretty much, Arturian stories center around the idea of honor and chivalry, that what makes a knight. And Lancelot's abilities reflect those ideas along side some mystical elements that is brought upon by fae influence. Japanese Servants like Yagyu and Musashi instead has a philosophy centered around the sword itself and what it means to use a sword and what it would do. That's why they have more abilities focused on literal sword techniques that has ascended normal bounds. That's how I see it anyway.

[pinetree]

So every time Cu uses Gae Bolg in this chapter it's the empowered thrown version, right? I don't see the jab on his NP list.

I really doubt Cu Alter can't use the other version even though it isn't on his profile, it's really hard to picture him using the thrown version on that scene against Nero for example.

[SpoonyViking]

Pretty much, Arturian stories center around the idea of honor and chivalry, that what makes a knight. And Lancelot's abilities reflect those ideas along side some mystical elements that is brought upon by fae influence.

Let's not get carried away there, we still have Lancelot defeating a hundred knights all by himself, sustaining wounds that would kill three men and still fighting without being hampered in any way, and - of course - defeating a fully-armed knight with only a twig. But this whole "mastering the sword so you don't even wield the sword anymore" strikes me as something very Zen, in my limited understanding of the philosophy.

[Lily Emilio]

ETA: Also - and please, correct me if I'm wrong, Mizukume -, Dugu Qiubai seems to be a modern fictional creation. Just think of the stuff modern fiction writers in the West have come up with, too!

Yes, however the setting for his story dated back in ancient China, long even before any of Jinyong's novel took place and his story is base on your typical "super ancient dude who left behind a legacy for our protagonist to learn" in ancient youxia tales dating back to around 300 BCE. That is why I picked him in particular, because the way he was described is very similar to Lancelot's "im the best" kind of deal, he even has the same "i can use rocks as weapon". Regardless of when his story was written, Dugu is the best swordman of his era within the context of his stories, just like lancelot is the best of his era within the context of his stories. Therefore you need to respect each of those individual stories.

They still write it now, this type of stuff is normal for books in the Wuxia genre

Edit: or was that the Xianxia genre. I know there's a difference between the two but I always forget it.

Yes it's wuxia. Xianxia has alot of magical stuffs added to them with even magic and monsters while Wuxia strictly focuses on martial art. Wuxia stories are mostly based on tales of invincible and gallant heroes who goes around saving ppl from youxia tales which date back to around the Qin dynasty which is around 200 BCE, they have a very long history with absurd OP characters, which xianxia wanked even more due to the involvement of xian and other mystic elements while wuxia focus on how OP their martial art can be.

[eddyak]

Knight of Owner

A Knight Does Not Die Empty Handed

though. Just because he also has a magic sword his other NP, which is one of the most creative in Fate, doesn't stop existing. And he even uses his beam sword in a different way than everyone else.

I understand that it's easy to forget that Saber Lancelot can do all the cool shit Berserker did in Zero because we just see his boring in-game animations, but I still think Lancelot is a servant defined by his ability rather than firepower.

You've stated my point exactly, and that's exactly why I'm so disappointed that his NP is firepower rather than ability.

What if I tell you that none of them shown up as servants in Fate yet?

Then I'll believe you, and I'll also be annoyed because eventually when they come out, they'll get the ridiculous shit like picking up a leaf and murdering with it, while our first example goes against the very point of his legend and just freaking lasers a dude.

Oh and don't forget a monkey king who defeated even the deities with his extreme skills that he gained the title "Victory Fighting Buddha" (The Buddha who wins every fight) after his journey to the west that Buddhism mantras still cite.

Does a monkey count as a human hero?

Like I already gave you the examples above, whatever Lancelot did in his story wuth his random items is not even special compare to a bunch of stories told by Chinese novels and epics. Expecting special treatment to Lancelot when what you described about his skill is pretty normal in both old and modern wuxia novels in China sounds unreasonable to me. I like Lancelot and I do agree that he deserves better. Heck I think Gawain needs more too. But I believe that giving a specific title to just Lancelot alone is stretching.

I'm assuming you mean ye olde wuxia novels of yore and not just "well i read this one last week", but y'know, Lancelot is the only one I've heard of whose weapon can only be wielded by the best.

We'll probably get a good chunk of heroes whose things are they they're all the best swordsmen under heaven and ye gods fall before me and all that, eventually. If FGO goes on long enough, and we get an arc somewhere in China.

[Lily Emilio]

Let's not get carried away there, we still have Lancelot defeating a hundred knights all by himself, sustaining wounds that would kill three men and still fighting without being hampered in any way, and - of course - defeating a fully-armed knight with only a twig. But this whole "mastering the sword so you don't even wield the sword anymore" strikes me as something very Zen, in my limited understanding of the philosophy.

Yup. It is Zen and rooted in Taoism, something dated back in 400 BCE or so.

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Lancelot is the only one I've heard of whose weapon can only be wielded by the best.

Which is why I said that you shouldn't come to conclusion that lancelot is the one and only y'know. I don't know all stories and legends but the "this weapon/technique/martial art is reserved for only the best" is not really unique.

[Laserman]

Different cultures and philosophies have different expectations of what's exceptional, and thus produce different stories about exceptional people.

Pretty much, Arturian stories center around the idea of honor and chivalry, that what makes a knight. And Lancelot's abilities reflect those ideas along side some mystical elements that is brought upon by fae influence. Japanese Servants like Yagyu and Musashi instead has a philosophy centered around the sword itself and what it means to use a sword and what it would do. That's why they have more abilities focused on literal sword techniques that has ascended normal bounds. That's how I see it anyway.

Oh, so it's not really a difference in imagination, it's more of a difference in culture then. Thanks for answering.

They still write it now, this type of stuff is normal for books in the Wuxia genre

Edit: or was that the Xianxia genre. I know there's a difference between the two but I always forget it.

Are they like light novels?

Yes it's wuxia. Xianxia has alot of magical stuffs added to them with even magic and monsters while Wuxia strictly focuses on martial art. Wuxia stories are mostly based on tales of invincible and gallant heroes who goes around saving ppl from youxia tales which date back to around the Qin dynasty which is around 200 BCE, they have a very long history with absurd OP characters, which xianxia wanked even more due to the involvement of xian and other mystic elements while wuxia focus on how OP their martial art can be.

Oh, that answers my question.

[pinetree]

You've stated my point exactly, and that's exactly why I'm so disappointed that his NP is firepower rather than ability.

I can get that, but the rest of his kit is very much dependant on his own abilities, so it doesn't bother me that his super special sword NP is just magic firepower, especially considering his other much more interesting NP is all about ability and honor.

[Laserman]

I can get that, but the rest of his kit is very much dependant on his own abilities, so it doesn't bother me that his super special sword NP is just magic firepower, especially considering his other much more interesting NP is all about ability and honor.

He has another one that's pretty cool too.

[pinetree]

He has another one that's pretty cool too.

Well not as a Saber, but yeah Lancelot is the best.

[Iceblade44]

Oh, so it's not really a difference in imagination, it's more of a difference in culture then. Thanks for answering.

a little bit of that, but in the context of Type Moon Servant creation, it's probably more of a difference in themes.