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Thread: Badass Versus Thread

  1. #201
    The Royal Chancellor of Avalon Keyne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
    LoL, so HF Shirou never killed himself after using Excaliblast on the Great Grail, right?
    ...Oh wait!
    Iirc he just swang it. After everything, she should have been dead and on the ground the moment he traced it.
    ]Also shall I post you pics of Lancer plunging Gae Bolg into Shirou's heart? Seriously...
    Yeah, he never saw Gae Bolg. Neither Lancer for that matter /sarcasm
    Meh.

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  2. #202
    死徒 Dead Apostle willyvereb's Avatar
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    He "just" swang it?
    Like he could pass the raging fire pit placed around the Great Grail while in the process of birthing All Evils In the World to life. It's pretty clear he used Excaliblast to destroy the Grail. Like a normal attack could destroy that huge thing anyways...

    By the way: Both HF Shirou and Archer used Rho Aias, another Noble Phantasm. So your argument really holds no water here.

    I hear this circular argument over and over.
    Why so desperate to nerf Shirou, Archer and Gilgamesh? They are amongst the top in terms of brokenness. Even if the Emiyas lack the power to properly back up their hax.

  3. #203
    The Royal Chancellor of Avalon Keyne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
    He "just" swang it?
    Like he could pass the raging fire pit placed around the Great Grail while in the process of birthing All Evils In the World to life. It's pretty clear he used Excaliblast to destroy the Grail. Like a normal attack could destroy that huge thing anyways...

    I hear this circular argument over and over.
    Why so desperate to nerf Shirou, Archer and Gilgamesh? They are amongst the top in terms of brokenness. Even if the Emiyas lack the power to properly back up their hax.
    Because sometimes there should be a limit to plot armour.
    By the way: Both HF Shirou and Archer used Rho Aias, another Noble Phantasm. So your argument really holds no water here.
    I excluded Rho Aias because it activates automatically when you trace it. It still holds water. A shield is meant to protect after all. And it's the only shield Archer and Shirou have in the UBW. The only object other than swords.

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  4. #204
    死徒 Dead Apostle willyvereb's Avatar
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    You misuse the word of plot armor. Shirou's ability is hax. There's no reason to weaken it beyond the official bounds (like it cannot trace guns and cannot really make true ranged weapons).
    Plot armor is that when Shirou survives some mean shits or manage to hold his own against Gilgamesh in combat. Being able to both trace and use Noble Phantasms isn't plot armor but the core of his ability.

  5. #205
    The Royal Chancellor of Avalon Keyne's Avatar
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    Plot armour or hax, it's still the plot. Also, if there's not a solid proof in text that Shirou can trace and use Gae Bolg, I will question any claim that says he can.
    Also, Shirou would be seriously godly if he pulled off an Excaliblast with that imperfect copy when his body was literally dead, his mind inches from flickering away and his mana reserves far below critical.
    Last edited by Keyne; March 20th, 2011 at 08:08 AM.

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  6. #206
    死徒 Dead Apostle willyvereb's Avatar
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    That's what it means being a true determinator. Kick the reason out of the bucket: I do whatever I want bitches even if it costs my life!

    Anyways, Shirou was far from being prana-deprived. If I have to say he had even a little too much prana (from Archer) and that gradually broke him down. And it matches both with Archer's claim and the source material if Shirou can pull of a fake Excaliblast. Although at the cost of his life. It's the same even if he would be perfectly healthy. The intense prana circulation would fry his brain cells.
    Still, I wouldn't compare Excalibur to Gae Bolg. It's notably one of the cheapest Noble Phantasm to use. BY both meanings of the word.
    I guess Shirou didn't use it for either PIS or because Gilgamesh's golden armor can handle it anyways (it's kind of comparable to Berserker's skin in power)

  7. #207
    The Royal Chancellor of Avalon Keyne's Avatar
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    I wouldn't compare Gil's armour to God Hand. After a barrage from a C-ranked Barrier of the Wind King, Gil said "Ok, that's enough".
    That's what it means being a true determinator. Kick the reason out of the bucket: I do whatever I want bitches even if it costs my life!
    HF was too overexaggerated for my tastes.
    Last edited by Keyne; March 20th, 2011 at 08:30 AM.

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  8. #208
    死徒 Dead Apostle willyvereb's Avatar
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    Yet Saber needed a point blank Excaliblast to be sure to break Gilgamesh's armor. And unlike the rest Gilgamesh didn't evaporate or getting atomized (like Caster's tentacle monster with hundreds of meters of height) but stood right in front of Saber with just a slight cut through his body. Yes, he disappeared but only after he said one of his best quotes in the game.

    Also while Barrier of the Wind King is C rank NP, the attack itself isn't. Saber has B rank strenght even under Shirou and the barrier of the Wind King multiplies the number of attacks like being hit by a jackhammer.

  9. #209
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    Yet Saber needed a point blank Excaliblast to be sure to break Gilgamesh's armor. And unlike the rest Gilgamesh didn't evaporate or getting atomized (like Caster's tentacle monster with hundreds of meters of height) but stood right in front of Saber with just a slight cut through his body. Yes, he disappeared but only after he said one of his best quotes in the game.
    It wasn't really an Excaliblast but a fully powered slash using all the remaining power of Avalon and her leftover armor. She didn't have much energy to spare and had to make sure that this blow would definitely kill her foe. If it had been like with Rider, who knows what might have heppened. Also, she had to conserve some mana for the Grail. Excalibur's power is adjustable, so she lowered it only to affect Gil. As it's said, Excalibur's true form is a slash.

    And I wouldn't call this a slight cut. But as Saber said, Servants don't die that easily, even with the most severe wounds.

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  10. #210
    I told 'em, I told 'em. Bugrit! eddyak's Avatar
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    Shirou used the weak version of Excalibur. Y'know, like the wimpy version Saber pulled off in the forst against Berserker in Fate, that didn't even penetrate God Hand.

    I think Shirou could use stabby Gae Bolg. He pulled off NLBW and K&B Overedge; though those might not count, since he was using Archer's full training and expertise.

    Either way, all Touma has to do is touch Shirou and all his current projections vanish.

    Killing one weapon inside UBW will proably cause UBW itself to vanish, since the weapons are part of UBW (hell, logically, even touching the air inside UBW should do it, but anime logic), but outside of it, he'd have to touch the swords one at a time.

    Shirou's not used to streetfighting (IIRC he used to beat up bullies when he was a kid), Touma punches magicians and espers every other week.

    Shirou's not fighting for anyone's sake, or for his dreams. Touma isn't fighting for anyone either.

    Conclusion: Touma wins, 70/30. Maybe 60/40.

  11. #211
    死徒 Dead Apostle willyvereb's Avatar
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    Well, she called "Excalibur!". That attack was an Excaliblast with all its rights. Also I wouldn't use reasons like she must've conserved prana for destroying the Grail. How do we know? The whole thing of Saber suddenly spamming 4 Excaliblasts just because of having sex with Shirou is a BS that already throws the notion of "prana reserves" out of the window.
    Also like I said: In Fate/ Zero Saber's Excaliblast literally atomized a hulking many hundred meters high tentacle monster (and it was damn required, otherwise the creature could've eventually regenerated). Compared to that Gilgamesh's injury is just a scratch.

  12. #212
    The Royal Chancellor of Avalon Keyne's Avatar
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    B-but... But Shirou busted up Shinji. *tear* T-that has t-to count for something. *clings to Eddyak with a crying face* R-right, Edd-kun?

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  13. #213
    I told 'em, I told 'em. Bugrit! eddyak's Avatar
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    Shiki in the middle of his anaemic fits could beat up Shinji. Miyako could beat Shinji. I'd give Ilya 50/50 odds of beating Shinji.

  14. #214
    The Royal Chancellor of Avalon Keyne's Avatar
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    Also like I said: In Fate/ Zero Saber's Excaliblast literally atomized a hulking many hundred meters high tentacle monster (and it was damn required, otherwise the creature could've eventually regenerated). Compared to that Gilgamesh's injury is just a scratch.
    Fate/Zero. Better stats, no restrictions.
    Well, she called "Excalibur!". That attack was an Excaliblast with all its rights. Also I wouldn't use reasons like she must've conserved prana for destroying the Grail. How do we know? The whole thing of Saber suddenly spamming 4 Excaliblasts just because of having sex with Shirou is a BS that already throws the notion of "prana reserves" out of the window.
    She called Excalibur, yes, but as I said, the power of the sword is adjustable. If it hadn't been, she'd tear the whole mountain apart in HF. She slashed him and the wave of light mangled his insides and dissipated. She used Excalibur 2-3 times already and that is pretty taxing. Also the sustained great injuries from Gil also pay a toll, cause she had to self heal.
    Shiki in the middle of his anaemic fits could beat up Shinji. Miyako could beat Shinji. I'd give Ilya 50/50 odds of beating Shinji.
    But Rin tied to that chair couldn't. *laughs maniacally*

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  15. #215
    死徒 Dead Apostle willyvereb's Avatar
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    It sure does.
    Also Shirou is no wimp. He held his own against Kotomine. Indeed, he was saved only due to having a literal armor around his body but remember: He was dying and could barely move. Yet the moment he gathered his strenght he landed 10 good punches on Kirei before he could retaliate. Also he has magic enchantments to both his strenght and speed. Even if Touma can undo those via IB, Shirou can just recast the reinforcement the next moment. Add that Shirou via porjections have skills sure above Touma (not to mention speed, tracing copy even the power of the original wielder somewhat as evidenced by him holding out against Souchirou and Gilgamesh also directly evidenced against Dark Berserker) and you can be sure Shirou has all the advantages on Touma. Punching squishy wizzards and little girls isn't really a strength feat. And as the Aqua and Kanzaki fights evidenced Touma can't beat actually competent superhuman fighters.

    The fact that Kirei is also dying isn't count. He's a goddamn monster. Just read his fight against Kiritsugu and you will know why.

  16. #216
    The Royal Chancellor of Avalon Keyne's Avatar
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    If Archer's arm counts as anything but physical, if Touma touches it, Shirou loses a limb there and then. And I'm afraid that it is still a spiritual entity.

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  17. #217
    死徒 Dead Apostle willyvereb's Avatar
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    That's quite possible. Although I doubt Touma can catch up to HF Shirou. He did defeat Saber Alter in a straight fight afterall. Kanshou and Bakuya combo would mess up Touma for sure.

  18. #218
    I told 'em, I told 'em. Bugrit! eddyak's Avatar
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    You can't compare Saints to half-arsed magi! At most, Shirou's reinforcement boosts him to a level slightly above most humans. Even Rin, the freaking genius magus, only managed to hit 100meters in seven seconds. Most athletes can make 100 meters in ten.

    Kanzaki and Acqua could move so fast they literally vanished from sight. Most Servants couldn't do that.

    But meh, supernatural abilities aside, Touma wins. With powers, Shirou has the advantage. IIRC, according to spoilers, Touma could wipe out a mass spam attack by Accelerator by the time of their rematch, so swordspam won't do Shirou much. Attacking with weapons will lead to the same result, Touma should be able to just wipe them out.

  19. #219
    死徒 Dead Apostle willyvereb's Avatar
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    Read Fate/Zero. Any Servants are above the speed of sound.
    Hell, EVEN KIREI KOTOMINE at his fullest Mantra boost. He also happen to have reactions faster than high speed rifle bullets which probably apply to his base power even.

    Yes, Fate/Zero does make the Servants much more of a monsters.
    Also it seems Saber can pul out something close to her Mach 14 trick even without a Command Spell boost.

    As for disappearing from sight...Saber and Zero lancer fought so fast that Irisviel couldn't see them from distance. They also turned 100 square meters of building and asphalt to rubble by JUST WARMING UP.
    Seriously...
    Saints and Servants are rather evenly matched.

  20. #220
    The Royal Chancellor of Avalon Keyne's Avatar
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    Accelerator isn't a Saint and in his weakened form he drove a freaking tall building several hundred meters and then smashed it against another. Touma defeated him yet again later as he went on a berserk rampage.

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