Badass Versus Thread

[Mike1984]

Sakura has the circuits, but can barely do anything with them. Shinji can use her circuits to attack Shirou. Tell me, who's the better magus?

Firstly, where do you get "Sakura can barely do anything with them" from? Secondly it's still Sakura, because Shinji can't do anything without Sakura's help, whereas Sakura has at least some level of potential.

Except she punched him out of a window. Lancer had fun by seeing how long he could hold out.

She was still playing with him, though. In a different way (because Shinji wouldn't let her do what Lancer did), but she was.

Still means she can't beat her in melee on even ground.

Shinji Rider can't, no, and probably nor could Sakura Rider. But, she'd make damn sure that she didn't have to....

Sakura didn't even want to fight in the War. She doesn't have a wish, except maybe "I wanna be with sempai", and that wouldn't exactly take much mana out of the infinite wishing machine.

Of course not, but why the hell would Sakura wish for immortality for Zouken? The guy has tortured her for eleven years. Even Sakura hates him (and that's saying something...). Why not just wish to be free of his control instead?

Plus, Zouken couldn't remove the worms even if he wanted to. So, if she didn't wish for freedom, there's a danger of him retaking control of her in the future, and she certainly wouldn't want to bring Shirou into that. Plus, I doubt Shirou would be willing to just let him live (with immortality, at that...) after all that he'd done, and freeing Sakura from his control would risk his situation being exposed to either Shirou or, worse (for him), Rin (and, by proxy, the Association, who would probably be very interested in using him for "research").

Yeah no. Saber was able to rule a kingdom. Maybe it didn't work out, but that was because of her bad personal skills, not because of intelligence. Meanwhile, Medusa is... yeah, no.

Erm, what? Since when does intelligence have anything to do with ruling a kingdom? And, yes, Saber's lack of intelligence (or, rather, her "honour before reason" attitude to things) did lead to the downfall of her kingdom, because she did things that were always going to incite rebellion. Plus, she's not exactly renowned for her tactical prowess. Her method of fighting is "charge at the enemy and slash it until it falls over".

As for Medusa, she was a fucking monster most of the the time. Monster forms tend not to have much intelligence, regardless of how smart the original is....

[Kotonoha]

Even Sakura hates him (and that's saying something...).

I seem to recall Nasu saying Sakura doesn't resent Zouken actually？

[SeiKeo]

Erm, what? Since when does intelligence have anything to do with ruling a kingdom?

Since, um, Mesopotamia.

And, yes, Saber's lack of intelligence (or, rather, her "honour before reason" attitude to things) did lead to the downfall of her kingdom, because she did things that were always going to incite rebellion.

Now, my Arthurian myth is a bit rusty, but I'm pretty sure that Arthur wasn't able to keep Lancelot under control, rather than being a bad ruler. And before we bring up how she took food from villages, that wouldn't be enough to induce popular revolt in a feudal system, in addition to the fact that actions like that are necessary in a time before railroad-powered logistics.

Plus, she's not exactly renowned for her tactical prowess. Her method of fighting is "charge at the enemy and slash it until it falls over".

I must have missed the part where commanding armies is the same as one-on-one duels and requires the same skills. However, I did notice that she managed to beat off 12 invasions in the space of a year, and that 'charge and slash' is the best tactical choice for her 90% of the time.

As for Medusa, she was a fucking monster most of the the time. Monster forms tend not to have much intelligence

This is the point.

[eddyak]

Firstly, where do you get "Sakura can barely do anything with them" from?

Since she herself said she wasn't taught jack.

[Mike1984]

I seem to recall Nasu saying Sakura doesn't resent Zouken actually？

Well, I certainly can't imagine that she likes him, or particularly cares for him, and given that I can't see why she would give him his wish, especially given the risk of endangering Shirou or others by doing so.

Since, um, Mesopotamia.

No, it's not, at least not in the short term. It's certainly a useful skill, but it's not a necessary one.

Now, my Arthurian myth is a bit rusty, but I'm pretty sure that Arthur wasn't able to keep Lancelot under control, rather than being a bad ruler.

She chose to burn Guineviere at the stake despite knowing how Lancelot would react. I'd call that pretty damn stupid, personally....

I must have missed the part where commanding armies is the same as one-on-one duels and requires the same skills. However, I did notice that she managed to beat off 12 invasions in the space of a year, and that 'charge and slash' is the best tactical choice for her 90% of the time.

That's beside the point. All that I'm saying is that Saber's tactical ability (in one-on-one battles, at least) is not anything like as good as Rider's, so Rider is likely to get the better of her in that respect.

This is the point.

But she's not a monster now....

Since she herself said she wasn't taught jack.

And when, exactly, did she say that?

I know that Zouken "trained her body rather than her mind", but that doesn't mean that she doesn't know any magic. Just that she wasn't taught as much as she should have been, because it was engraved into her body instead (which, BTW, still makes it "her" magic, since she can still use it...).

[eddyak]

I know that Zouken "trained her body rather than her mind", but that doesn't mean that she doesn't know any magic. Just that she wasn't taught as much as she should have been, because it was engraved into her body instead (which, BTW, still makes it "her" magic, since she can still use it...).

I didn't say she knows nothing, I said she barely knows anything. Zouken would've only taught her the bare essentials, and do you really think she'd go studying magic in her spare time?

[Flame]

No, she's not. Check their relative stats.



Already addressed it....



See HF....



Of course. But, that still gives her more of a chance than any other master but Shirou....



Nothing there says that she "cannot win", though....



Rider is much faster than Saber, though. Just because Saber can't manage it, that doesn't automatically mean that Rider can't.



And Rider is also a servant. She can dodge....



If he fights seriously, yes, but the same applies to everyone else, so....



They had a pretty long fight which seemed relatively evenly-matched to me....

Yes, the terrain helps her, but except in the first battle in HF Rider was a match for Saber every time.



Erm, when? Also, she had Shinji fucking her over and making her fight stupidly, so....

I'm not talking about stats. Shirou!Saber overall is more powerful than Sakura!Rider. Unless powered by plot, Rider has no chance of winning.

No you haven't.

We're talking about normal Sakura here.

no comment.

She can't defeat Lancer in battle and Bazett Fragraches her ass the moment she uses her eyes/Bellerophon. How can she possibly win?

. . . . . That BP covers 4 KM in a few seconds. Can Rider foresee an attack from Archer at a distance of 4 KM, manage to deflect an A rank homing BP, run 4 KM in a few seconds and climb all the way to the top of a skyscraper (by the time which Archer rearms his swords) and somehow strike Archer down? No, at a distance she's fucked, period. And Saber >> Rider, if she can't Rider has no chance.

If Gil is playing around then yes, she can dodge his attacks. His chains however? No way in hell.

I'm saying Rider has no chance against a Gil that's playing around. A non-serious Gil knocked Saber and Berserker into the ground with relative ease.

no comment.

It was a onevone battle in the begining of HF where Rider jumps around before getting whacked with one hit by Saber. Shirou says "she strikes her down with a bored expression: or something.

Their fight in Fate suggests otherwise. Even when clearly weaker (due to Shinji), she still gave Saber a decent fight. And, so what if she used the terrain to her advantage? That's called being intelligent (and being willing to "cheat" a bit rather than insisting on an honourable and fair fight), and I'm pretty sure that intelligence is something Rider possesses substantially more of than Saber....

Because under normal circumstances, they would fight on normal terrain which results in Rider's death on Saber's hands. If they fight on super bad terrain they are evenly matched, but Rider still cannot defeat Saber. If Rider pulls out Bellerophon she gets Excalied in the face.

No, it's not, at least not in the short term. It's certainly a useful skill, but it's not a necessary one. She chose to burn Guineviere at the stake despite knowing how Lancelot would react. I'd call that pretty damn stupid, personally....



That's beside the point. All that I'm saying is that Saber's tactical ability (in one-on-one battles, at least) is not anything like as good as Rider's, so Rider is likely to get the better of her in that respect.



But she's not a monster now....



And when, exactly, did she say that?

I know that Zouken "trained her body rather than her mind", but that doesn't mean that she doesn't know any magic. Just that she wasn't taught as much as she should have been, because it was engraved into her body instead (which, BTW, still makes it "her" magic, since she can still use it...).

If you truly believe that then you'd make one bad leader. Ask yourself this: If she didn't burn Guineviere because of her act of "treason" how would the public react?

Except Saber won in every battle against Rider. Saber's understanding of tactics are on a different level than Rider's, but that doesn't meant Rider's are better.

She's still a monster. She's fucking medusa.

Last battle vs Rin in HF.
Paraphrasing:
Sakura:"The Matou's expected nothing from my intelligence level, they only trained my body and laugh at me when I suffered thinking I'd become a better tool bla bla"
Rin:" Hmmm? So what?"

[SeiKeo]

No, it's not, at least not in the short term. It's certainly a useful skill, but it's not a necessary one.

Except she didn't rule in the short term. She was king for quite a while, and I doubt it was because she was dumb.

She chose to burn Guineviere at the stake despite knowing how Lancelot would react. I'd call that pretty damn stupid, personally....

She isn't Machiavelli; she does have a moral code. There isn't any choice for her there: it's either burn or tear down the philosophy and morals that her entire reign is based on, and appear to give her wife a pass on treason. But this still comes back to her having bad interpersonal skills, since she should have had better command over her knights than Lancelot.

That's beside the point. All that I'm saying is that Saber's tactical ability (in one-on-one battles, at least) is not anything like as good as Rider's, so Rider is likely to get the better of her in that respect.

The only time that we can say that Rider shows a good grasp of tactics is when she leads Saber up the skyscraper. That plays to her strengths: speed and agility. What are Saber's strengths? Crazy attack power and defense, and good magic resistance. What's the best way to leverage these? Charge the enemy, and force them to engage you in swordsmanship, which they will almost always be worse at.

But she's not a monster now....

But when she wasn't a monster, there's no reason for us to believe that she was sharper than the rest of the knives in the drawer.

[Keyne]

She chose to burn Guineviere at the stake despite knowing how Lancelot would react. I'd call that pretty damn stupid, personally....

She was forced to burn Guinevere because Guinevere's romance with Lancelot was exposed by her political enemies. Lancelot turned into a Berserker because she took his shame and guilt from him, when he should be feeling ashamed and guilty. Arturia is a bit different from Arthur in that regard. Plus, Lancelot still saved Guinevere.

[Mike1984]

I didn't say she knows nothing, I said she barely knows anything. Zouken would've only taught her the bare essentials, and do you really think she'd go studying magic in her spare time?

It's not clear exactly how much she knows, actually, only that it's more than Shirou and less than Rin....

Either way, she's still a better magus than Shinji, because she can use magic and he can't....

I'm not talking about stats. Shirou!Saber overall is more powerful than Sakura!Rider.

No, she's not. Go look at the stats again. If you ignore luck (which is entirely random and probably has little effect on battles in most cases), Rider is equal to or slightly better than her.

Unless powered by plot, Rider has no chance of winning.

Why?

We're talking about normal Sakura here.

And that was "normal" Sakura. She hadn't turned Dark at that point....

She can't defeat Lancer in battle and Bazett Fragraches her ass the moment she uses her eyes/Bellerophon. How can she possibly win?

She might be able to beat Lancer in battle and I was assuming this was Lancer under Kotomine, not under Bazett....

. . . . . That BP covers 4 KM in a few seconds. Can Rider foresee an attack from Archer at a distance of 4 KM, manage to deflect an A rank homing BP, run 4 KM in a few seconds and climb all the way to the top of a skyscraper (by the time which Archer rearms his swords) and somehow strike Archer down? No, at a distance she's fucked, period.

I think you're underestimating her abilities here....

And Saber >> Rider, if she can't Rider has no chance.

No, she's not. Specifically, Rider (under Sakura) has higher agility, which is what matters in this instance.

If Gil is playing around then yes, she can dodge his attacks.

If Gil isn't playing around, then she gets vapourised by Ea in ten seconds flat....

His chains however? No way in hell.

She might be able to, and she might even he able to break them (she's not got that much divinity).

I'm saying Rider has no chance against a Gil that's playing around. A non-serious Gil knocked Saber and Berserker into the ground with relative ease.

And I'm saying that that's not true. Firstly, Gil was semi-serious against Berserker and, to some extent, Saber. Secondly, Rider has an attack which can in theory kill him, if he's too casual about it, and it's not obvious that it can. That puts her a step above both of those two.

no comment.

You know, this would work a lot better if you actually used the quote function properly, and split my message into parts....

It was a onevone battle in the begining of HF where Rider jumps around before getting whacked with one hit by Saber. Shirou says "she strikes her down with a bored expression: or something.

Well, yeah, that's because Shinji is a shit master, and forced her to fight in a stupid manner. Fate shows what she's capable of, as do her actions under Sakura later in HF.

Because under normal circumstances, they would fight on normal terrain which results in Rider's death on Saber's hands.

No, they wouldn't, because Rider isn't stupid. Saber would follow Rider wherever she went because she can't turn down a challenge.

If they fight on super bad terrain they are evenly matched, but Rider still cannot defeat Saber.

If they fight on super-bad terrain (for Saber), when Rider is under Shinji's control they're evenly matched, yes. Rider under Sakura would wipe the floor with her in such circumstances.

If you truly believe that then you'd make one bad leader. Ask yourself this: If she didn't burn Guineviere because of her act of "treason" how would the public react?

Why should the public give a shit if the King's wife committed adultery? Plus, pardoning people for treason was done all the time in the middle ages. Several kingd pardoned their relatives for plotting or even fighting against them, and the people honestly couldn't care less. Why does it matter to them if she chooses to show leniency?

Except Saber won in every battle against Rider.

Normal Saber never fought Sakura's Rider, so that's an entirely meaningless statement. Plus, Rider did defeat Saber, at the end of HF (albeit with Shirou's help).

Saber's understanding of tactics are on a different level than Rider's, but that doesn't meant Rider's are better.

Saber's idea of "tactics" is to work out how loud to shout "charge!" before running in waving her sword around....

She's still a monster. She's fucking medusa.

No, she's not, at least not in the normal definition of "monster". She acts like a human and she has the same mental capacity as normal humans.

Last battle vs Rin in HF.
Paraphrasing:
Sakura:"The Matou's expected nothing from my intelligence level, they only trained my body and laugh at me when I suffered thinking I'd become a better tool bla bla"
Rin:" Hmmm? So what?"

Yes, that doesn't mean that they didn't teach her anything. I mean, it's not much use for them to train her body if she doesn't know how to use it.... Plus, she's a good enough magus that she can just work a lot of it out for herself. It's just instinctive for her.

I'm not saying that she's the world's best magus, but she's sure as hell better than Shinji. Knowing a load of shit about magic is totally meaningless if you don't have any circuits....

Except she didn't rule in the short term. She was king for quite a while, and I doubt it was because she was dumb.

Intelligence isn't generally required from warrior kings. She won respect through battle, not through intelligent and shrewd running of the country....

She isn't Machiavelli; she does have a moral code. There isn't any choice for her there: it's either burn or tear down the philosophy and morals that her entire reign is based on, and appear to give her wife a pass on treason.

What, and murdering your innocent wife for minorly inconviniencing you by having sex with another guy (when you yourself haven't actually been able to satisfy her and your marriage is purely for show) is moral? That's some seriously fucked-up moral code.

The treason laws are there solely to protect the king and to treat them as "special" and "better" than everyone else. To claim that it's immoral to pardon someone for breaking them beggars belief. If Guineiviere had been someone else's wife she would not have been burnt for it, so why is it wrong not to do so just because the person she "betrayed" happens to have been born into the Pendragon family and pulled some magical sword out of a stone?

The only time that we can say that Rider shows a good grasp of tactics is when she leads Saber up the skyscraper. That plays to her strengths: speed and agility. What are Saber's strengths? Crazy attack power and defense, and good magic resistance. What's the best way to leverage these? Charge the enemy, and force them to engage you in swordsmanship, which they will almost always be worse at.

Yes, but Rider will use that to her advantage.

But when she wasn't a monster, there's no reason for us to believe that she was sharper than the rest of the knives in the drawer.

She certainly seems pretty smart....

[food]

O man, this is getting good.

[Keyne]

What, and murdering your innocent wife for minorly inconviniencing you by having sex with another guy (when you yourself haven't actually been able to satisfy her and your marriage is purely for show) is moral? That's some seriously fucked-up moral code.

The treason laws are there solely to protect the king and to treat them as "special" and "better" than everyone else. To claim that it's immoral to pardon someone for breaking them beggars belief. If Guineiviere had been someone else's wife she would not have been burnt for it, so why is it wrong not to do so just because the person she "betrayed" happens to have been born into the Pendragon family and pulled some magical sword out of a stone?

If Guinevere had been someone else's wife, she'd have been killed by her husband regardless. A knight would not stand such shame. But Saber didn't do it out of shame but under pressure.

Edit: post #1000. Yeah, go me.

[Tangerang]

What's the argument right now? Whether Rider can defeat Gilgamesh? Whether Rider can defeat Saber? Whether Rider is more intelligent than Saber?

Somebody give me a play-by-play replay tl;dr summary

[Keyne]

At this point, I dunno myself lol. *shrug*

[food]

Whether Sakura Rider can face-melt Shirou's Sabre.

[Keyne]

Whether Sakura Rider can face-melt Shirou's Sabre.

She's not a dark priest or warlock. D:

[food]

So far, Mike is in the lead with a post 1/4 of a page long.

[Keyne]

So far, Mike is in the lead with a post 1/4 of a page long.

Who cares about that? cutesmile.jpg

[Tangerang]

So far, Mike is in the lead with a post 1/4 of a page long.

Well food, when it comes down to meaninglessly long wall of texts posts, Mike's pretty good at those.

[Tobias]

thats that long winded skill showing up.