It was a smart move.Originally Posted by LeopardBear
The Einzberns knew that they cannot control a true hero of Hercules calibre, and they have been burned repeatedly in the past. They opted for the safest option.
However, they underestimated Ilya and Berserker's chemistry. If they knew, you bet they'd summon him as Archer. However, given the circumstances, you can't blame the Einzberns.
I'm not going to lie, when I read this, I immediately thought
1.'If the king does not move, his men will not follow': Code Geass
2. lol Illegal Chess move in R2
3. lol Saber making an illegal chess move
<Satehi> I, satehi, thought of tentacles first for entirely inappropriate, disgusting, lewd and perverted reasons
Honk
I seem to remember it being mentioned that he was most suited for the class of archer, if it means anything.
Saber: *trollface* And that's how I won 12 battles in a row.
Ilya can't control someone with that kind of power? Kiritsugu was able to control Saber, roughly equal to Herc, and Ilya is a far more competent Master than he is.
Well:
Caster: Depends on her strong her magical barrier is?
Assassin: Doesn't really have any defense against Pegasus. On the other hand, it might be hard to use Pegasus considering the terrain people have to fight against Assassin in. And the anti-Sevant anti-NP bounded field. And of course, Caster Support.
Archer: Depends on Rho Aius.
Saber: EKSUU-KARIBA
Gilgamesh: plenty of options in GoB, not the least ENUMA ELISH
Rider: She's not going to be fighting herself?
Lancer: Thrown Gae Bolg may or may not be able to snipe Rider off her Pegasus. Also, his runes may or may not be able to block Pegasus once? Something about blocking something at the level of a great NP?
Berserker: The strongest greek hero. If he was sane, he could just nine lives her ass. Even berserk, I wouldn't be surprised if his Eye of Mind (Fake), and insane stats, and God Hand steel skin, actually allowed him to catch Pegasus charge out of the air.
Something about the one letting him show his power to the greatest potential?I seem to remember it being mentioned that he was most suited for the class of archer, if it means anything.
<Satehi> I, satehi, thought of tentacles first for entirely inappropriate, disgusting, lewd and perverted reasons
Honk
Not legally they wouldn't....
What, so having sex with someone else deserves death? Plus, their marriage wasn't even truly legal, because Saber is female.A knight would not stand such shame. But Saber didn't do it out of shame but under pressure.
That's got little to do with the main part of the argument, honestly. It's just something that bugs me (as someone who is naturally very Chaotic in nature). Saber did not have to kill Guineviere, and the only reasoning I've ever heard for why she did basically boils down to treating her differently because "some moistened bint lobbed a scmitar at her" (to quote Monty Python...).
The first is true, the rest you've just pulled straight out of your ass with precisely zero evidence to support it.
Well, I would agree that it's difficult, but honestly Archer isn't going to get her at that sort of distance. Rider ain't stupid. Plus, he never does it once in the original Grail War.No. She has no way to destroy Hrunting (her daggers would be melted to scrap iron), and if she dodges it, it comes back and hits her in the back of her skull. Archer's tactic would've taken down Saber on her own pretty easily since she wouldn't have bothered to destroy Hrunting and would've dodged it, and it took a Shirou with foreknowledge and Rho Aius, a Saber with full circuits and a Command Seal to beat him, and he still would've won if he hadn't been out of practice at projecting K&B. Nobody (in the fifth war, at least) beats Archer at a distance.
Well, yes, perhaps.Her strength is higher than her divinity, sure, but those few seconds it'd take her to break the chain would turn her into a pincushion.
But, anyway, I don't seriously think she could beat Gil if he was fighting remotely seriously. I just don't think she's any worse off in that respect than any other servant barring Archer and Saber with Avalon.
And how does burning her at the stake alter that?"Hurr dat king arfur carnt evun keep his woife satisfyd, howz he expect to be king? less support dat uvver guy"
Yeah, but she still attempted to murder Guineviere in cold blood. That's just plain evil.Kings, politicians and even dictators need respect.
Yes, and being able to use magic makes it somewhat easier for her to do that....They didn't want her to use it. They wanted a puppet that'd win the Grail War for them.
Yeah, but we don't know if Saber actually did "run the country well". All we know is that she protected it from invasion effectively.You've gotta be intelligent to run a country well.
Of course, but that doesn't mean that it's right to murder someone in cold blood (and very painfully) for daring to have sex with the wrong guy. Even more so, in fact, if they were forced into a marriage against their will for the "good of the country".Except practically every marriage by a king or someone in the royal family was done for the sake of connections and keeping the country stable.
Maybe not, but you've got to be pretty damn incompetent as a king to get overthrown, in general, especially when you're in the middle of a war and fighting desperately for the survival of your nation, and given that Saber did end up getting rebelled against, there is very little that you can really say about her prowess as king outside of the battlefield.
Plus, there's a difference between being intelligent enough to not totally fuck your country up, and being truly intelligent. If there wasn't, then most monarchies would have constantly been collapsing, since I don't for one second buy the idea that monarchs are somehow likely to be "better" than the average person (indeed, thanks to in-breeding they were generally worse). So, all your argument can prove, at best, is that Saber is not monumentally retarded.
Really? Because I'm pretty damn sure that Mao is still revered by the vast majority of Chinese people (hell, Stalin is revered by many Russians).In his early days, Mao was widely revered as a leader against the Japanese, but that didn't save his image once he started killing people.
Yeah. I mean, what would happen, for example, if said king is about to have said lover burnt to death?This is not a minor inconvenience. Lancelot being involved with Guineiviere could easily lead to a situation where he is forced to chose between his lover and his king.
Oh, wait....
Perhaps, but given your own argument having her sentanced to death was about the worst thing she could have done. Because, whilst the presense of the relationship made it possible that Lancelot might have to choose, ordering her to be burnt her to death made it certain that he would, and further gave him a very large incentive to pick Guineviere (because, honestly, most people would agree that saving someone you love from a painful death at the hands of your boss is the "right" thing to do).Letting said relationship continue would be impossible to maintain over the long run, and the longer it goes on, the harder the break will be when it happens.
Yes, but I don't buy that. Everyone is equal, why the fuck should the King be treated differently just because he happened to be born into a family that was arbitrarily defined as "Royal"?The king, by his position as head of state, and in Arthur's case, by virtue of divine right, is "special" and "better." There do have to special laws concerning the king, because some peasant's wife being an adulterer is far less important than the same situation concerning the queen of the realm and one of, if not the most, powerful knights in the kingdom.
Saber is honourable and tends to just rush into battle at the first opportunity. Rider is not. Therefore, Rider will abuse Saber's honour to ensure that the fight happens on her terms.Could you make this a little clearer? I'm not quite sure what you mean.
Perhaps, but she still comes across to me as being substantially smarter than Saber. That's just personal interpretation, though, I can't really provide any hard evidence for it.How smart she may seem is irrelevant. We have no evidence of Rider being especially intelligent beyond what you would expect from a little fighting instinct.
It's still several levels above Saber's "I know, I'll rush into the temple which my master specifically warned me not to go to yet without his knowledge and with no plan and just swing my sword around" level of tactical expertise and planning....
Yeah, but why would she? It's not like your average sword has the ability to spam super-powered beams of light, and an invisible sword is enough to qualify as a Noble Phantasm by itself.
Yeah, pretty much. If Rider and Saber meet on flat ground, Rider will just run away until she reaches terrain more suited to her, and Saber will follow her, because that's just how Saber is.
Yeah, this.
She had no alternative, in any case. She couldn't win a normal battle, because she was weaker than Saber (due to Shinji), and given the strength of her NP it was a fairly decent bet that she would be able to defeat Saber using it, so it was worth a try.
Exactly.
And Rider would exploit that tendancy for all it's worth.
Well, yeah, but they were more worried about betrayal than they were about ensuring that they got the best possible servant for helping them to win.
Also, it's quite possible that, had they summoned Herc in his sane form, he'd have convinced Ilya to go "fuck this" and just try to live, rather than trying to win and sacrifice herself as the Grail.
Caster: Her barrier for sure won't hold given the degree of mystery of Pegasus and Bellerophon. She would probably run.
Assassin: He will just get petrified, no need for Pegasus.
Archer: Rho Aias won't hold, it barely held Gae Bolg, which is below Belleophon.
Sabre: I said she would win.
Gilgamesh: I said he would win.
Lancer: There's really nothing he can do given the speed and power of the charge. The flying phase is out of range for Gae Bolg, and he won't get a Gae Bolg off during the charge phase.
Berserker: I think he might actually die, if not, it would certainly deter Ilya enough to quit while ahead. It is certainly not worth it for her to waste a ton of Berserker's lives on Rider.
EDIT:
Rider should at least get away when fighting other Servants with the Pegasus (if the target was not turned into a crater). Pretty much only Gilgamesh and Sabre can wipe her out while she is on Pegasus.
And Mike makes an overwhelming response and takes back the lead, completely stopping the momentum from Eddyak and LeopardBear's push!
That was just referring to Pegasus charge though (in reference to the Assassin thing). And I'm not sure on the Berserker thing. I think he could react enough in time. I'm not quite sure he would die that many times.
<Satehi> I, satehi, thought of tentacles first for entirely inappropriate, disgusting, lewd and perverted reasons
Honk
She'd be dead on the spot. Legally, because it was like committing treason.Not legally they wouldn't....
For them it was not. For her allies AND her enemies it was 10000000000000% legal.What, so having sex with someone else deserves death? Plus, their marriage wasn't even truly legal, because Saber is female.
Rider knows jack shit about exploiting tendancies.Exactly.
And Rider would exploit that tendancy for all it's worth.
H-H-Holy shit....
Arthur-san is my waifu
[20:57] frantic: I can't even remember what opinions I actually hold about the thing compared to shit I made up to piss people off
[17:13] Airen: Its not an airen character unless gay
I think not even a Reality Marble can compare to Mike's posts in size.
<Spinach> Yes Verg
<Spinach> I need this
<Spinach> Yessss
<Satehi> don't do it malgos
<Satehi> don't
<Satehi> yamete
<@RacingeR> Laputa would only fit if it was Kratos
Well, it's a general "knight" tendancy, so....
But, anyway, moving the fight to a more advantageous place is just common sense regardless of whether Saber follows or not, so whether she knows what Saber wouldn't do doesn't matter.
Cutting through the pointless crap that is just a back and forth scenario based argument.
Because Saber is stronger overall. Saber is the strongest class. Saber has more battle experience, a much stronger weapon, A rank instinct etc etc. Also, Excalibur.
So how a "normal" Sakura defeat Gilgamesh? Dark Sakura can since she can suck him in, but normal Sakura can't.
She's completely fucked vs a Lancer/Bazett, but is going to have a tough time beating Lancer/Koto which means a Lancer/Koto is going to have an easy time defeating her. I'm repeating myself, you enjoy doing this don't you?
No I'm not. If you have no counter argument don't merely say "you're underestimating her here...."
*facepalm* I was talking about the f/ha bridge scene where Archer defeats Saber/Shirou 1000 times from a distance of 4 KM. If Saber could not win easily, then Rider has no chance and by that I mean that Saber couldn't advance because the BP was too powerful to block and she could only deflect it. Rider can't deflect an A rank BP and is therefore fucked. This attack came from a distance and Rider cannot foresee nor do some crazy ass shit in time to avoid it. Also, please read the scene from f/ha before commenting further on this point.
But most likely not. Those chains are too powerful.
No she wouldn't. Saber's too powerful for that. The game makes it painfully clear how powerful Saber is in melee combat over and over again. In that scenario Rider!Sakura might have an advantage over Saber, but only briefly since skyscrapers have limited height.
That was Dark Saber. A slower version with weaken instincts.
She's still Medusa, the gorgon monster. Anyone with an affinity against monsters will beat her easily.
So getting back to the original purpose:
Confirmed Saber's victory.From:http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread...-casts./page18
What are the chances of Rider/Sakura winning the Grail war?
Rider vs Saber: Saber's victory.
Archer vs Rider: IIRC the HF battle shows they are equal in a narrow place. If Archer aims a BP at Rider from a distance, Rider's fucked, period. Bellerophon and Gorgon mode is a different story and could change the outcome.
Lancer vs Rider: Tobias, word of god etc
Caster: dunno
Berserker vs Rider: Berserker wins.
Gilgamesh vs Rider: Gilgamesh wins.
Archer and Rider are equal, Archer loses on 1v1 in melee combat whereas Rider loses from a distance.
Lancer!Kotomine has a high chance of defeating Rider, Lancer!Bazett wins easily.
Caster and Rider both have high chances of defeating each other (?)
Berserker wins.
Gilgamesh obviously wins.
Let's put this to a vote, out of ten battles (or any random number) who do you suppose would emerge victorious?
Rider vs Saber: Majority votes for Saber.
Rider vs Archer: Half-Half.
Rider vs Lancer!Bazett: Nasu-check: Lancer wins most the battles.
Rider vs Caster: Half-Half/Quarter-ThreeQuarter/3/4-1/4
Rider vs Fake!Assasin: Rider wins, period.
Rider vs Berserker: Majority votes for Berserker/Stalemate(?)
Rider vs Gilgamesh: Majority votes for Gilgamesh.
Worst case scenario, Rider kills Fake!Assassin only.
Best case scenario Rider defeats FA, Caster, Archer and probably Lancer.
Her claim of winning the war is null and void unless powered by plot
Last edited by Flame; March 30th, 2011 at 04:36 PM.
Being secluded on a deserted island while being a freaking moster teaches you about knightly tendancies....Well, it's a general "knight" tendancy, so....
The only thing Rider knew is that she could not defeat Saber with her strength alone.But, anyway, moving the fight to a more advantageous place is just common sense regardless of whether Saber follows or not, so whether she knows what Saber wouldn't do doesn't matter.
Without Shirou, that scene would be Fate Day 10 take two, but this time on Alter's terms.Plus, Rider did defeat Saber, at the end of HF (albeit with Shirou's help).
Agreed. Rider may or may not be a tactical genius, but anybody can figure out that taking all the advantages you can get in a fight is just logic.
Hope Rides With His Godly Ronin/Cowboy Brother In Law
Anyway, out of curiosity, has anybody proposed a way that Rider could deal with Excalibur blast yet?
<Satehi> I, satehi, thought of tentacles first for entirely inappropriate, disgusting, lewd and perverted reasons
Honk
Take it like a man!
He would definitely know that the Pegasus is a huge threat during the air phase. He can choose to run, which would be wise.
However, when the charge phase starts, there's no way he can catch a diving divine beast of Dragon calibre at 400km/h. This is not Archer's arrow he can just knock out of the air, it is a diving comet with ungodly defence that cannot be knocked down with muscle force.
Berserker might die, or he might not, I am not too sure either. However, the charge will definitely make it not worth while for Ilya.
Rider may even choose just keep diving at Ilya if Berserker develops resistance. It will just be a stalemate as Berserker has to shelter Ilya.
Immelman Turn?
Bellerophon is her ultimate defense if that helps.
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