Badass Versus Thread

[fumei]

not calling you out specifically but can someone give me where did they get thisis it nasu blog

2016/12/14 : 無題。（きのこ）

[You]

Wait, I thought A in all stats was only with the world as his master or something, and otherwise he has the 30 points spread thing (give or take depending on master capacity)?

it's A in all stats with wolf chimera
A in all stats +30 to distribute with the World

[Arashi_Leonhart]

told on Youtube

well first

[Altaris]

I bet it was Christemo

[fumei]

it's A in all stats with wolf chimera
A in all stats +30 to distribute with the World

ohh, ok then

[8000]

Mate he can even change his form to whatever combat requires of him. He toyed with Richard just by minmaxing his stats a bit. If being super customizable in term of stats and is nigh immortal when near Earth doesn't scream hax to you idk what is.

There's a limit to how much he can adjust any stats without lowering the others significantly so it's a rather balanced ability actually. But either way if you consider this hax, I'm not sure how an AoE attack with 1-100 range that can't be tanked isn't.

You're right Servant Karna is even stronger than living Karna because living Karna never has the option to choose VS or KnK at the same time.

If anything concept would even give him advantage against Karna after they become Servant even, because he's supposed to be the one that kill Karna

And he still lost.

It's not just Noble Phantasms. We have no idea what their living stats were like compared to Servant versions. I mean living Arthur has strength feats that dwarf any Servant yet he only has A rank strength.

Conceptual advantages are hard to quantify.

- - - Updated - - -

To be fair it's not impossible, you can have two separate tier lists for servants at max prana (battery/max faucet Sakura tier masters) vs servants at low prana (Shirou tier masters). And then set in a theoretical battlezone where origin country powerup doesn't exist (just use their feats outside of their home country)

That takes out the major tipping scales

Or if you really wanted to make it just one list, factor in prana efficiency into their rankings (which is quite clumsy imho but what do)

This might work if Nasu's doing it, but even then it'll be probably be contradicted by actual fights much like parameter listing. For us it would be impossible because there would be too much disagreement about exactly where each Servant lies and because it all comes down to compatibility in the end.

[Altaris]

There's a limit to how much he can adjust any stats without lowering the others significantly so it's a rather balanced ability actually. But either way if you consider this hax, I'm not sure how an AoE attack with 1-100 range that can't be tanked isn't.

There's more counterplay to Pashupata than to Enkidu's shapechanging ability. You could prevent Arjuna from using it by just melee him, which many melee specialist can do. Enkidu's ability is way more hax because he turned to whatever has the best advantage against your style of combat and he is basically nigh immortal unless you lure him to fly, which he won't do because why would he do that when he can spam mud weapons into the sky

It's not just Noble Phantasms. We have no idea what their living stats were like compared to Servant versions. I mean living Arthur has strength feats that dwarf any Servant yet he only has A rank strength.

Conceptual advantages are hard to quantify.

I'm not sure what even is your point here. I pointed out how Karna was basically considered to be above Arjuna in life as in Karna's matrix

I pointed out Karna actually beat Arjuna in America when both of them are Servants.

And as I said because Heroic Spirit are crystallization of their lore, Arjuna should, by all mean, has an advantage against Karna after they both become Servant because he was the one that killed Karna.

Everything about it scream Karna is above Arjuna in tier here

[8000]

There's more counterplay to Pashupata than to Enkidu's shapechanging ability. You could prevent Arjuna from using it by just melee him, which many melee specialist can do.

Pashupata works at range 1. For reference Gae Bolg's thrust is range 2-4. It's usable in melee.

[Iceblade44]

Dude you're literally just prove my point that there's basically no way to be completely sure whether or not he has it active. He can be properly summoned with it but choose to seal it because of mana constraint or whatever reason. There's no way someone like Higashide who always likes to showoff everyone's NP in his work would completely forget to at least throw a mention, heck even Scathach got to show her Gate NP despite it never being in her profile or trial quest.

Rama didn't show off his Vishnu Bhuja.
Beowulf didn't show off the abilties of Hrunting and Neagling.
Fionn didn't use Fintan Finnegas
I mean did Helena even use her NP in America because I don't remember it showing up tho I could be misremembering.

Just saying that every NP must be showed off in the authors work and that everything that didn't show isnt working is just to quick of an assumption. I mean in Okeanos David never used Sacrifice and Atalanta didn't use her pelt, in Orleans George didn't use his NPs and honestly I don't think Siegfrieds Armor of Fafnir was even ever mentioned. Why would Karna seal his Armor as mana restraint? The only reasons he ever does that is our of concern for his Master and seeing how he immediately used Brahmastra when he should up him being worried over mana doesn't make sense.

How does this disprove my point that it's not a reliable NP and more of a case-by-case ? Furthermore you're saying it like Arjuna did it all against the Demon Pillar when there were two EX NP being used at the same time to restraint/do whatever they were supposed to do against the Pillars so he can use Pashupata.

The restraint wasn't for the pillars because Pashupatra wouldn't work on them, it was for they to be all in one place so that Arjuna could be sure to not take anyone of the Servants in the crossfire. All Edison and Tesla did was create a cage, that's it. Yes Pashupata is a case by case basis, but we know some of how it judges those case to case basis' and that's through Divinity.

Did you even play the Interlude ... Archer Karna was stunned for the entire time because it was to mimic the circumstances where he killed Karna in life.

It's also a dream that serve to show him overcoming his inner struggle, that's why he fought against another Arjuna at the end

Yeah I get that, I was just throwing that out there. Tho even if it was a dream that doesn't the Servant's were fake, well they were made from Arjuna's memories so they were fake in that way but the dangers of them was the real deal.

[Altaris]

Pashupata works at range 1. For reference Gae Bolg's thrust is range 2-4. It's usable in melee.

Yeah that really explains why Arjuna doesn't use it against Karna when he's about to be finished off

Also lol range stat is like one of the biggest meme ever.

[Iceblade44]

There's more counterplay to Pashupata than to Enkidu's shapechanging ability. You could prevent Arjuna from using it by just melee him, which many melee specialist can do.

That's ignoring Arjuna's own melee skills which Rama praises. And seeing how he was able to put up a decent fight against someone who has enough skill to make his attacks A Rank even without the needed strength then I'd praise him to.

I'm not sure what even is your point here. I pointed out how Karna was basically considered to be above Arjuna in life as in Karna's matrix

I pointed out Karna actually beat Arjuna in America when both of them are Servants.

And as I said because Heroic Spirit are crystallization of their lore, Arjuna should, by all mean, has an advantage against Karna after they both become Servant because he was the one that killed Karna.

Everything about it scream Karna is above Arjuna in tier here

Karna is certainly stronger than Arjuna, that's unrefutable. But than talking that statement in meaning that Arjuna is a weaker Servant and isn't as great as the top tier Servants isn't. Arjuna loses to Karna because it's Karna, no one else. Saying that Arjuna loses Achilles or Rama because they are on Karna's level and thus Arjuna is a lower tier Servant to them is dumb. Arjuna can beat Achilles, Arjuna can beat Rama, Arjuna can beat Heracles. Because he's Arjuna, everything in lore is pointing at that he's a very strong Servant no doubt about it. I'm fine with Arjuna losing to Karna, it what makes his character but then taking that to meaning that Arjuna isn't an incredibly powerful Servant on his own is something I can't stand.

[8000]

Yeah that really explains why Arjuna doesn't use it against Karna when he's about to be finished off

Also lol range stat is like one of the biggest meme ever.

They'd been fighting for a while. He might've just not had enough energy.

I missed the meme. Pashupata is a ball that appears in Arjuna's hand and expands, so there's no reason it wouldn't be usable up close.

[Altaris]

@Iceblade: Dude I never said he isn't incredible or great. But to me he is not top tier, he needs more than just what he currently has for me to even consider it. For heaven's sake he's one of my most favorite characters too.

They'd been fighting for a while. He might've just not had enough energy.

This is like some of the weakest attempt at defending that loss.

I'll just pretend i never see this

[Iceblade44]

Pashupata works at range 1. For reference Gae Bolg's thrust is range 2-4. It's usable in melee.

The reason why Arjuna can't use Pashupata in melee because it takes time in setting up, as one can be seen from his NP line. He can't just use it on a whim.

[8000]

I'm not sure what even is your point here. I pointed out how Karna was basically considered to be above Arjuna in life as in Karna's matrix

I pointed out Karna actually beat Arjuna in America when both of them are Servants.

And as I said because Heroic Spirit are crystallization of their lore, Arjuna should, by all mean, has an advantage against Karna after they both become Servant because he was the one that killed Karna.

Everything about it scream Karna is above Arjuna in tier here

My point is there's no way to assert Servant Karna as more powerful or even that their living versions can be brought into the discussion.

Karna is above Arjuna. That's fairly clear. Still don't see why they have to be in different tiers or Arjuna can't be top tier.

[castor212]

The reason why Arjuna can't use Pashupata in melee because it takes time in setting up, as one can be seen from his NP line. He can't just use it on a whim.

ok but what if he can use it like a literal rasengan

[8000]

The reason why Arjuna can't use Pashupata in melee because it takes time in setting up, as one can be seen from his NP line. He can't just use it on a whim.

His line doesn't give any indication how long getting approval takes or that he can't build it up while fighting. But I suppose it's speculative.

- - - Updated - - -

This is like some of the weakest attempt at defending that loss.

I'll just pretend i never see this

But it's not? I mean it's an A+ ranked attack, if he used it earlier in the fight he probably wouldn't be able to use it again...

[Altaris]

But it's not? I mean it's an A+ ranked attack, if he used it earlier in the fight he probably wouldn't be able to use it again...

Explain how he was able to use it against the Demon Pillar then. And he definitely doesn't seems to be lacking mana looking at how he literally fight your party after that

[Iceblade44]

Dude I never said he isn't incredible or great. But to me he is not top tier, he needs more than just what he currently has for me to even consider it.

And that's just the point I'm refuting since to me Arjuna is at the level going by all the lore in his profile and mats and his interactions with other characters. Which is deserved because frankly he is one of the most famous Indian Heroes their is. He has a great weapon, his trump card is the most destructive weapon of the destruction God(there's also Awarded Hero which definelty plays a role in his skillset tho as it's vague I won't count it, tho considering Tesla's sudden appearance and how it seemed Arjuna was behind it I have my theories) . The only reason he doesn't seem had is because he doesn't have a defensive ability for survivability. But he definitely is in skill and attack power or that's what seems to me. If you consider Rama to be top tier because of his arsenal, stats, and his three-in-one class nature then it bothers me why you wouldn't consider the same of Arjuna who is presented with a strong skillset as well.

But we will probably get an impasse at this rate so let's agree to disagree.

- - - Updated - - -

@Iceblade: Dude I never said he isn't incredible or great. But to me he is not top tier, he needs more than just what he currently has for me to even consider it. For heaven's sake he's one of my most favorite characters too.

He's one of my favorite too, that's why I do as much research into him as I can, evaluating what he has done, what his profile implies he can do, and what is the general consensus among other Servants on how strong he is. Because simply I love Arjuna and think he's great and that it's deserved.

[LJ3]

obviously a top tier servant is an A rank Servant

Liz was a mistake

Gawain what are you smoking