Badass Versus Thread

[Ronove]

This is the reason it was set up like that, but it's still the case in-universe.


Yes but Shirou is a discount Emiya.

You're not getting it. You can't say Emiya > Shirou, then attribute Shirou's victory to him when Shirou only won because of a fluke that would never happen again.

Gil's CIS was well established by that point, no reason it wouldn't be applicable. And to be honest throughout all his appearances Gil rarely goes beyond sword spam.

Gil uses more stuff than swordspam all the time. Vimana in Zero, all sorts of tricks in Strange Fake, and poison/melee combat in CCC and Extella. Swordspam is his preferred method, but that's not all he sticks with.

Shirou was better in melee in UBW than Fate because he improved by observing and fighting Emiya. Gil overwhelmed Saber by using the abilities of his weapons which Shirou was specifically countering.

Because of how projection works, Shirou would have traced Artoria's sword skill along with Caliburn, and indeed, Gil does overwhelm Saber in cqc. So if your idea is that Shirou >Gil and Saber then that would also put him above Emiya.

[SpoonyViking]

Even in the Fate route, when he's fighting Saber on the bridge he's using a variety of Noble Phantasms with different effects instead of just raining sword-arrows.

[Altaris]

By a normal Grail War I mean one where her Master wouldn't be able to ship in insane amounts of resources to construct the hanging gardens.

And Mordred was brought to death's door almost instantly when Sikera Usum was invoked, way before Basmu was brought in. Unless the enemy has poison resistance or some other way of counter-acting the poison (which only happened because Semiramis just happened to use the exact poison Kairi had prepared an antidote for) then it's pretty much an "instant-win button", at least in close quarters.

Mordred did not die instantly from poison and Semiramis relies on her magecraft as well as Basmu to buy the time until poison kicks in. Most Heroic Spirits have high tolerance for pain. Furthermore, many Heroic Spirits can counteract her poison to a certain degree or just nuke her instantly when they realize something is wrong. Mordred lasted for a while until Kairi inject her with poison. Without Basmu/magic in that timeframe Semi would be dead.

By a normal Grail War I mean one where her Master wouldn't be able to ship in insane amounts of resources to construct the hanging gardens.

In a normal Grail War Semi is pretty much deadweight. Sikera Usum is also much more potent in her Throne Room, where she has absolute control over the room property

[Iceblade44]

Also, even with Gilgamesh toying with Shirou in UBW, the latter would have died if Archer hadn't summoned Rho Aias from offscreen.
Also, Gilgamesh not fighting at full power is still enough to defeat Saber, even Saber with Avalon - the only reason she even got a chance to use Avalon was because he was deliberately holding back so as to not kill her, he wanted her to be forcibly corrupted and materialised by the Grail. And even Shirou!Saber is a superior Servant to Archer.

Saber lost because she got overwhelmed by either the sword spam or Gil's different weapons in melee. Lancelot is pretty much almost unaffected by sword spam and what he can't handle if in UBW then Archer can deal with them. Your trying to put Archer in the same place as Saber, just duking Gil out plain out and not in his special Reality Marble where his firing speed can deal with the annoying sword spam. If it was just Archer alone i don't see how he can deal with the ever changing weapons if he fought Gil in melee since as a Servant Gil would take Emiya more seriously then Shirou, not by much but that would still win it for him. But now Emiya is fighting alongside Lancelot, a melee king. I'd say that ups his chances exponentially for taking a win if they can bum rush Gil before he can actually asses the situation and respond.

[8000]

I would like to point out that Gil himself says he would have treated Archer differently, and Rin points out that he was far more wary there. Gil when he's actually concerned =/= careless king that won't get serious until its already too late.

Did he say that? If so that would change my perspective. I wouldn't have thought so from the way he was openly badmouthing Archer.

[Iceblade44]

I would like to point out that Gil himself says he would have treated Archer differently, and Rin points out that he was far more wary there. Gil when he's actually concerned =/= careless king that won't get serious until its already too late.

Probably missed that. All I got from Gil/Emiya interactions were just enmity. Probably have to reread.

[8000]

Also, even with Gilgamesh toying with Shirou in UBW, the latter would have died if Archer hadn't summoned Rho Aias from offscreen.

If Archer could block that weak Ea discharge while he barely had any energy, he could probably do it again with less issue.

And even Shirou!Saber is a superior Servant to Archer.

Eh, I don't think so. She has a better NP, but there's not a big difference between them in melee and Emiya is more versatile. He also did much better against Hercules, although if you wanted to argue that fight should be ignored entirely I wouldn't argue.

[Iceblade44]

Gil uses more stuff than swordspam all the time. Vimana in Zero, all sorts of tricks in Strange Fake, and poison/melee combat in CCC and Extella. Swordspam is his preferred method, but that's not all he sticks with.

Vimana he only pulled out to have a look see over the sea monster, and only fought in it while having a dog fight with Emiya. We haven't actually seen him use it in combat that wasn't vehicle base. Gil's changing weapons only happens when he fights in melee. Everything else is sword spam.

Also he hasn't used anything out of the normal in SF except for defensive amarnments, but only against ranged. That can deal with a few UBW, but shouldn't against a spam tho he can still defend against that by just firing swords.

[Arashi_Leonhart]

but there's not a big difference between them in melee

I'm going to laugh now.

[Iceblade44]

If Archer could block that weak Ea discharge while he barely had any energy, he could probably do it again with less issue.

Eh, I don't think so. She has a better NP, but there's not a big difference between them in melee and Emiya is more versatile. He also did much better against Hercules, although if you wanted to argue that fight should be ignored entirely I wouldn't argue.

Saber is better at melee by being better skilled, had instinct, plus mana burst for sudden bursts of power.

[RoydGolden]

Mordred did not die instantly from poison and Semiramis relies on her magecraft as well as Basmu to buy the time until poison kicks in. Most Heroic Spirits have high tolerance for pain. Furthermore, many Heroic Spirits can counteract her poison to a certain degree or just nuke her instantly when they realize something is wrong. Mordred lasted for a while until Kairi inject her with poison. Without Basmu/magic in that timeframe Semi would be dead.

I'm just going by how it was depicted in the anime but Mordred (who, mind you, had B-ranked Battle Continuation and so should've been able to handle pain better then most) seemed to be incapacitated almost instantly once Sikera Usum was deployed. The only reason she survived long enough to make a comeback was because Semiramis chose to revoke it and try to persuade Mordred to team up instead of letting her die.

In a normal Grail War Semi is pretty much deadweight. Sikera Usum is also much more potent in her Throne Room, where she has absolute control over the room property

That point is fair enough. I'm not sure what form Sikera Usum would take outside the Hanging Gardens, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was less powerful. (Aside from just lacking the Phantasmal beast summoning aspect)

[8000]

Saber is better at melee by being better skilled, had instinct, plus mana burst for sudden bursts of power.

She's better, but it's not a large enough margin to be decisive.

[Iceblade44]

If I remember right Mordred's helmet has a poison filter but she was still massively weakened by the poison. So yeah unless they have a skill of poison resistance I don't see anyone faring better.

[8000]

Also he hasn't used anything out of the normal in SF except for defensive amarnments, but only against ranged. That can deal with a few UBW, but shouldn't against a spam tho he can still defend against that by just firing swords.

I think he did use some non-sword weapons in his clash with Enkidu. Some of the weapons were described as lightning or raw force IIRC.

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If I remember right Mordred's helmet has a poison filter but she was still massively weakened by the poison. So yeah unless they have a skill of poison resistance I don't see anyone faring better.

Between this and Arash getting taxed by Ozy's poison, I'm starting to think poison resistance skills are ripoffs.

[Iceblade44]

She's better, but it's not a large enough margin to be decisive.

It would be if she actually has a reliable pathway for energy.

And if your talking about decisive, of the three times Saber fought Archer in both SN and HA, she won each battle with a single strike the moment she was fresh with energy.

[Tobias]

Hey remember that time Nasu mentioned that saber was so much better in melee tha even if he invoked the UBW archer still couldn’t beat saber in CQC?

good times.

[8000]

It would be if she actually has a reliable pathway for energy.

And if your talking about decisive, of the three times Saber fought Archer in both SN and HA, she won each battle with a single strike the moment she was fresh with energy.

This is discussing Shirou's Saber specifically.

The first time they fought Emiya wasn't trying to fight, the second time he was without a master and Saber attributed her easy win to that. The third time was with a CS and happened because Emiya was unprepared for melee since he'd been sniping.

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Hey remember that time Nasu mentioned that saber was so much better in melee tha even if he invoked the UBW archer still couldn’t beat saber in CQC?

good times.

UBW's not actually a big boost in melee expect against Gil. I don't think Nasu was talking about Shirou's Saber specifically either.

[Tobias]

True, I don’t see any special combat advantage to be gained with the ability to at will assault your oppoenent from dozens of different directions at once whilst simultaneously explicitly retaining all and complete ability to make full and even expanded use of your melee skill set.

[Arashi_Leonhart]

Then the better litmus test is:

Emiya vs Lancer round 1: Emiya stays alive fine, but is constantly disarmed, and had Cu fired off Gae Bolg, fuuuuuuuu
Shirou!Saber vs Lancer: Saber bitchslaps Lancer, who fires off Gae Bolg and Saber is still up and trucking

Shirou!Saber vs Kojirou: "Ahhh, your sword technique is so fine and skills so great, I'm glad to be alive, let me show you my ultimate move."
Emiya vs Kojirou: "Move bitch geddout da way." (Shirou: Ugh, even I can tell his technique is shitty)

[Ordep]

Saber Artoria at its maximum capacity (considering Avalon) Vs Chaldea Karna