Badass Versus Thread

[youcanthandlethetruth1992]

this is all only taking account that X character can kill Herc without Herc turning X character into paste

ZerkHerc has more thing going on than just GodHand, offensively and defensively.

the thing about trying to kill Herc 12 times, even if you have 12 different sorts of swordsmanship, even if you can bypass the resistance up of God Hand, is that Herc would probably already kill you before you can manage to do that.

That one line in the novel has basically become something to turn him invincible. Lets put everything on the table. Ive been on other forums in the past and youtube. There's a lot of cherry picking. Some says Herc is invincible to

1. 12 swordsmanship
1a. This is the one thing nobody ever talks about. In the novel, it'll simply said Saber cut Herc here. It's just a swing. Then what? She cant cut that arm again? What if she swings it upward instead of downward? What about the other arm? Archer cut Herc's arm already. How come he got hurt again by Saber?
2. Same weapon
3. Same special attack

It's just sounds so bullshit when I think about it.

What are the implications? To defeat Herc, you need and/or

1. 12 swordsmanship
2. 12 NP

But super blast like Bellerophon and Excalibur can conveniently kill him repeatedly. Even that, Ive found people rejecting that idea too.

[castor212]

thats not the point

the point is, even if all things you assume able to kill Herc can by pass God Hand and kill Herc, it is an undeniable fact that
1. Herc's defensive measure is not only God Hand; his Mind's Eye is also a factor in that he is still able to in an instinctive manner dodge/block/do stuff against stuffs that are actually dangerous for him
2. long term CQC against Herc is a bad idea because he is almost always better than you physically

every things you said only takes account that Herc would simply stand there taking the attacks and does not counter attack and turn you into man-paste

to be more exact, to kill herc you need
1. 12 different swordsmanships / 12 different NPs / a big enough scale NP
2. the method to stay alive long enough to do number one

there arent many HS able to do both things.
which is completely fine because we are talking about Hercules

[Mcjon01]

It's just sounds so bullshit

Well, yeah
That’s Herc
There’s a reason he got banned from Grail Wars in Apocrypha for being too unfair

[Zurvan]

Also note that Herc gets resistance to what killed him, not immunity

And there's NP's strong enough to kill him multiple times in one go, Caliburn for example, so no you don't need 12 NP's

[eddyak]

By definition, a curse with the power to reverse cause and effect can reverse the protection of Godhand.

No.

What Gae Bolg does, is it makes the effect come first (the spear in the heart), then fudges the rest so that the cause (getting stabbed by said spear) occurs. It's as simple as that. It's not going to overwrite the curse of a major god.

[youcanthandlethetruth1992]

Where is this Medusa can beat Herc thing coming from anyway, Medusa a shit

I only know from past discussions, not here, that Medusa can beat Herc. I dont remember the details. I could be wrong. But Im 90% sure.

No he can't, because Gae Bolg isn't A Rank

Ive said already, Cu Chulainn can use runes to uprank to A.

God Hand has three effects:

1) It prevents attacks below A Rank from Harming Herk. Think of it this way- If Gae Bolg Breaks a Law of reality by reversing Cause-and-Effect, Godhand introduces a New Law of reality, which is 'Lolz U Aren't Rank A so GTFO'

2) It Brings you back from the dead. So even if Cu could kill Herk, he'll get better, which aint good for Cu.

3) It adapts to anything that has bypassed it before (which when coupled with 2, is really not good for Cu).

Like I said, if one law breaks the other, then it's a contradiction. Im being literal here when it says it reverses cause and effect. That's why Im in the lone camp that it should work on Godhand even if its B rank. I know Godhand nullifies attack less than A rank. My point is simply wordplay, cause and effect. By definition, Gae Bolg's rank shouldnt matter because of it's curse. That's how I feel about it.

Medusa can by WOG take 2-3 Lives in one shot with Bellerophon, after which it becomes Useless. Additionally, Legendary Greek Monster VS Greeces greatest Monster slayer=Bad time for Best Snek

What's WOG?

Not really, because using UBW VS Herk isn't actually beneficial. It's a huge Power Guzzler and doesn't add anything because 99% of it is useless against Herk, As contrasted with Gate of Babylon, which costs basically nothing and is loaded with A Rank items that can bypass God Hand.

What Archer Needs to beat Berserker is time to build up his Big Shots (to penetrate God Hand), and UBW doesn't help with that, it'd just suck him dry of all the power he needs to get the shots in.

Then let Archer spend that mana. I think Archer can have at least 12 A rank NP. Plus I think he could uprankBs to A, something called Broken NPs. That's why I feel it's plot armor that he died. he could have won.

But now I think about it, Gate of babylon is also a NP. Never mind the individual NPs, just using the Gate would should a decent amount of mana too. But I digress.

Yes, just kill a Walking Death Machine that shrugs off all but your best hits, and resurrects itself but with immunity to those shots when they do get in, 12 times.

Before said Walking Death Machine manages to paste you once.

That's the thing. His power of resistance spectrum is so broad. Some say it's this, some say it's that. Some say it doesnt matter what, coz he'll get immune. How does it work definitively?

That being said, Archer killed him 6 times. If he was allowed to retreat, he could finish Herc off in another day.

Unless of course Gil pulls out his Anti-Causality-Reversal NP and lols at Gae Bolg because he's Gil and that's what he does. Or he just stays outside of the spears range. Or pull out one of a countless number of other bullshit options out of his hat because again, it's Gil, and his entire shtick is "I did everything you did first retroactively, only better, because Fuck You"

What is this Anti-Causality? Never heard of it. Still, Gil must know Cu Chulainn's NP to know what to use. This is one of the key points in the novel. True in real life. If you work in a chem plant, if all your indicators failed, how can you control? You must know the processes. Knowledge is key.

[Mcjon01]

WOG is Word of God. And Nasu saying that Cu can kill Herc if he upgrades his attack to A rank with runes is a tacit acknowledgement that he can't kill Herc without upgrading his attack to A rank, regardless of your feelings on the matter. Gae Bolg (Heart Stab Ver.) is just going to whiff, because the destiny interference curse it's trying to stick to Herc is only B rank which means it bounces off God Hand. And if you can't apply the curse, cause and effect doesn't reverse.

[Iceblade44]

WoG is word of god. Basically what it means it's official word by the creators, when asked what were the Servants chances against herk, what he gave you was Medusa's answer.

- - - Updated - - -

snipe

[Mcjon01]

What is this Anti-Causality? Never heard of it. Still, Gil must know Cu Chulainn's NP to know what to use. This is one of the key points in the novel. True in real life. If you work in a chem plant, if all your indicators failed, how can you control? You must know the processes. Knowledge is key.

Good thing Gil doesn't have special eyes that let him see his opponents cards, right?

[castor212]

the rank matters

even assuming your argument holds true

assuming the curse could take effect to begin with

GB curse is reverse of cause and effect

cause: thrust spear
effect: B rank heart stab attack

the curse affect event's chronology
even if shuffled, the effect is still a B rank damage, which would still get nullified

- - - Updated - - -

Knowledge is key.

Gil has Sha Naqba Imuru

[youcanthandlethetruth1992]

thats not the point

the point is, even if all things you assume able to kill Herc can by pass God Hand and kill Herc, it is an undeniable fact that
1. Herc's defensive measure is not only God Hand; his Mind's Eye is also a factor in that he is still able to in an instinctive manner dodge/block/do stuff against stuffs that are actually dangerous for him
2. long term CQC against Herc is a bad idea because he is almost always better than you physically

every things you said only takes account that Herc would simply stand there taking the attacks and does not counter attack and turn you into man-paste

to be more exact, to kill herc you need
1. 12 different swordsmanships / 12 different NPs / a big enough scale NP
2. the method to stay alive long enough to do number one

there arent many HS able to do both things.
which is completely fine because we are talking about Hercules

Herc is hyped. But he kept losing lives too and that's how the story use it. Even in the forest fight in fate route, Saber managed to cut him. But I think saying you need 12 sword styles is too much. At the most basic level, a swing is still a swing. If Herc dont block a A rank swing, he still gets cut is my opinion. Otherwise then what? Herc would kept getting nicked by Saber until he's dead then he cant get nicked again or he get nicked once on the arm like in the forest.... then cant get nicked again all over his body?

Like a good poster said, it's resistance, not immunity. And you can kill resistance. It just becomes a battle of attrition. Just do a tactical retreat when you mana pool is running low.

Specifically matching up with Cu Chulainn, when he can uprank his NP to A, it would just attack the heart. There's no need for 12 NP. With Saber, like I said, you can kill resistance. As long as Saber has a good master so she has a good mana pool, she can either cut him up or Excalibur him.

No.

What Gae Bolg does, is it makes the effect come first (the spear in the heart), then fudges the rest so that the cause (getting stabbed by said spear) occurs. It's as simple as that. It's not going to overwrite the curse of a major god.

Gae Bolg is also a curse. Lets call Godhand a gift, tho I think somewhere described it as the curse of immortality. If it's not overwriting Godhand, then the curse is invalid. Or if Gae Bolg is overwriting Godhand, then it's making Godhand's gift invalid. Im just on Gae Bolg's side becoz of that one phrase, reversal of cause and effect. Even with Godhand's shield of less than A rank NP protection, the spear already pierced his heart. It's nothing about it's rank for me, but it's curse.

[Clockehwork]

Archer could kill Herc the same way Gil did with UBW. Archer wouldnt target Illy and doesnt have the chains. With those, Gil stood pat smugly. Archer just need to retreat while spamming and win.

He can certainly try. And he clearly did. But UBW is not as good as GoB is. He does not have as many items in general, as wide a variety of items, or as high a quality of items, all of which directly hamoers his ability to damage Heracles, in addition to using all of them being more difficult and costly for him than Gil. And even then, the entire reason Gil handled Herc as easily as he did is because he was targwtting Illya and going not Herc. You try targetting Herc alone, he will bumrush and steamroll you without even trying unless you are REALLY good at running away. Emiya has no Disengage, nothing whatsoever to help him outrun an angry demigod who has nearly double his Agility even under normal conditions let alone while trying to use multiple Broken Phantasms to kill that demigod 12 times.

It sticks out to me that all the evidence is only one line. Think about the implications. Gae Bolg, Excalibur, Medusa. The swordsmanship or the special attack. Which of those exactly wont hurt Herc again? Why Nasu even bother saying Cu Chulainn and Alter Saber can kill Herc without his resistance in mind when answering? That's why Im questioning. Is it really that definitive?

It is a source of damage. Taking damage from a fire gives him resistance to fire. It wouldn't matter if he stepped on the fire or aomeone threw a fireball at him, fire is fire is fire. Special attacks might be considered separate sources from normal attacks with the same weapon, but different mundane attacks with the same sword are not going to be considered different.

Yea it works out for Shirou. Hero has to win, right? Convenient he wasnt wearing armor. Otherwise, Shirou is dead.

It's not that simple. You have to take into consideration that there are plenty of ways the battle could have gone, and plenty of ways that it did go. The narrative showed how everything lined up perfectly, but that doesn't mean Shirou's victory was just a case of the villain losing because he has to. Gil won, a lot. He just didn't win 100% of the time, and him not winning was the timeline that mattered for the sake of the story. It is the only one of your examples that can actually be considered plot armor by someone who knows what that phrase means, but just calling it plot armor kind of misses the point.

Then which law breaks which? If one law cannot break the other, then it's a contradiction. By definition, a curse with the power to reverse cause and effect can reverse the protection of Godhand. I think it's just a plothole left by Nasu.

No, because that's not how Gae Bolg itself works. It doesn't rewrite all existence to kill the target, it just rewrites one little thing: the spear pierces the target's heart. God Hand, on the other hand, is a totally separate existence, that Herc is unaffected by anything below A rank. No part of "pierces Herc's heart" makes Gae Bolg bypass "can't hurt Herc". Best case scenario, assuming that the curse of being a full-fledged immortal god inflicted upon Heracles by the head of the Olympian pantheon doesn't just no-sell the spear technique developed by a mere demigod and the entire technique fails to proc because it isn't A rank, he just gets a spear in his heart and is not bothered by it.

But super blast like Bellerophon and Excalibur can conveniently kill him repeatedly. Even that, Ive found people rejecting that idea too.

He doesn't get his resistance until he revives. Big single blasts can knock off multiple lives before he becomes functionally immune, sure, specifically because they are single huge blasts.

[castor212]

Even in the forest fight in fate route, Saber managed to cut him.

???
i dont remember such a thing ever happened.

It just becomes a battle of attrition. Just do a tactical retreat when you mana pool is running low.

Thats the problem.

Again I say. A battle of attrition against Herc is the worse.
You have to take account how Herc is super nimble despite the size, able to instinctively dodge or block things that are dangerous for him, and has higher physical parameter than most other Servants.
NP aside, tactical retreat aside, even to begin hurting Herc with normal hits require said attack to be above A rank, requires said attack to be good enough to bypass Herc's own AGI and Mind's Eye, requires it to hit vital point and kill him instead of just nicking him in unimportant places, and requires doing it long enough before beaten to a pulp by Herc.

Specifically matching up with Cu Chulainn, when he can uprank his NP to A, it would just attack the heart.

By which he would resurrect and gained resistance against it.

Gae Bolg is also a curse. Lets call Godhand a gift, tho I think somewhere described it as the curse of immortality. If it's not overwriting Godhand, then the curse is invalid. Or if Gae Bolg is overwriting Godhand, then it's making Godhand's gift invalid. Im just on Gae Bolg's side becoz of that one phrase, reversal of cause and effect. Even with Godhand's shield of less than A rank NP protection, the spear already pierced his heart. It's nothing about it's rank for me, but it's curse.

Reversal of cause and effect does not render GOdHand immunity suddenly disappear. Under what logic would this happen?

[youcanthandlethetruth1992]

Good thing Gil doesn't have special eyes that let him see his opponents cards, right?

the rank matters

even assuming your argument holds true

assuming the curse could take effect to begin with

GB curse is reverse of cause and effect

cause: thrust spear
effect: B rank heart stab attack

the curse affect event's chronology
even if shuffled, the effect is still a B rank damage, which would still get nullified

- - - Updated - - -


Gil has Sha Naqba Imuru

Ok, seeing as Sha Naqba Imura was introduced in FHA, which I havent read, I'll admit Gil beat Cu Chulainn. I still feel Gae Bolg B rank can beat Godhand. B rank damage it may be, it's stabbing the fleshy heart. I always thought of it only his skin is harden, not the flesh beneath. Like you could use a C rank to stab his eyes or shove it down his throat would hurt. That just how I feel.

[forumghost]

Also remember that if you try to live to fight another day against Herk his extra lives grow back.

[castor212]

He doesn't get his resistance until he revives.

to be more specific, until he regen.

The resistance kicks in after the damage is done and he regen.

WHich brings to point that

Herc would kept getting nicked by Saber until he's dead then he cant get nicked again or he get nicked once on the arm like in the forest.... then cant get nicked again all over his body?

this would not happen.

Any nick, no matter how small it is, even if it doesnt kill him, even if its A rank nick, grant him resistance.
So "nicking Herc to death" is an impossible scenario because each nick gives him resistance against nicks.

[forumghost]

Ok, seeing as Sha Naqba Imura was introduced in FHA, which I havent read, I'll admit Gil beat Cu Chulainn. I still feel Gae Bolg B rank can beat Godhand. B rank damage it may be, it's stabbing the fleshy heart. I always thought of it only his skin is harden, not the flesh beneath. Like you could use a C rank to stab his eyes or shove it down his throat would hurt. That just how I feel.

Well then your feeling is objectively wrong because Godhand is Herks whole body not just his skin

[castor212]

Ok, seeing as Sha Naqba Imura was introduced in FHA, which I havent read, I'll admit Gil beat Cu Chulainn. I still feel Gae Bolg B rank can beat Godhand. B rank damage it may be, it's stabbing the fleshy heart. I always thought of it only his skin is harden, not the flesh beneath. Like you could use a C rank to stab his eyes or shove it down his throat would hurt. That just how I feel.

untrue
simply put, in most recent official info, GO mats, it is his whole body that becomes GH's robust armor, not just his skins
even the VN said its the body and not just skins

"Yes, his body itself is his Noble Phantasm.
You should know too about Hercules' twelve labors. The Greek hero Hercules overcame twelve tasks to atone for his sins and became 'immortal' as a reward.

[Clockehwork]

Ive said already, Cu Chulainn can use runes to uprank to A.

He can. And he very explicitly can beat Herc by doing that. But it is not as simple as "Cu can beat Herc with runes gg". Cu needs to use runes to stand a chance against Herc, and with runes that is all he has. Not a win. Not a fair fight. Just a chance.

Then let Archer spend that mana. I think Archer can have at least 12 A rank NP. Plus I think he could uprankBs to A, something called Broken NPs. That's why I feel it's plot armor that he died. he could have won.

All his projections suffer a rank down, you have to remember, and he can't make any EXs. He is much more limited in >B rank attacks than you think.

But now I think about it, Gate of babylon is also a NP. Never mind the individual NPs, just using the Gate would should a decent amount of mana too. But I digress.

It's not ungodly cheap, but it is not particularly costly either. It is specifically singled out as being supremely cost efficient. The only cost is in opening the portals, chucking countless A rank NPs out afterwards is for all intents and purposes free. Gil doesn't ever use them after shooting so the mana costs of the individual weapons is irrelevant.

[youcanthandlethetruth1992]

He can certainly try. And he clearly did. But UBW is not as good as GoB is. He does not have as many items in general, as wide a variety of items, or as high a quality of items, all of which directly hamoers his ability to damage Heracles, in addition to using all of them being more difficult and costly for him than Gil. And even then, the entire reason Gil handled Herc as easily as he did is because he was targwtting Illya and going not Herc. You try targetting Herc alone, he will bumrush and steamroll you without even trying unless you are REALLY good at running away. Emiya has no Disengage, nothing whatsoever to help him outrun an angry demigod who has nearly double his Agility even under normal conditions let alone while trying to use multiple Broken Phantasms to kill that demigod 12 times.

Herc has to block or dodge is an A rank Broken NP is coming his way. That would give Archer space. Archer could win.

It is a source of damage. Taking damage from a fire gives him resistance to fire. It wouldn't matter if he stepped on the fire or aomeone threw a fireball at him, fire is fire is fire. Special attacks might be considered separate sources from normal attacks with the same weapon, but different mundane attacks with the same sword are not going to be considered different.

A cut from a sword is still a cut. Even with resistance, Herc can still die by it.

No, because that's not how Gae Bolg itself works. It doesn't rewrite all existence to kill the target, it just rewrites one little thing: the spear pierces the target's heart. God Hand, on the other hand, is a totally separate existence, that Herc is unaffected by anything below A rank. No part of "pierces Herc's heart" makes Gae Bolg bypass "can't hurt Herc". Best case scenario, assuming that the curse of being a full-fledged immortal god inflicted upon Heracles by the head of the Olympian pantheon doesn't just no-sell the spear technique developed by a mere demigod and the entire technique fails to proc because it isn't A rank, he just gets a spear in his heart and is not bothered by it.

I just feel like his heart is not A rank protected, only his skin and Gae Bolg circumvents the skin or even violates it. Just how I feel about it. But at least he can use runes so just agree to disagree.

He doesn't get his resistance until he revives. Big single blasts can knock off multiple lives before he becomes functionally immune, sure, specifically because they are single huge blasts.

Cool. Didnt know that. It's resistance, not immune. So how many can Excalibur take from Herc?

???
i dont remember such a thing ever happened.

She just cut his arm and then Rin jumped down. I might be wrong. But Im 75% sure.

Thats the problem.

Again I say. A battle of attrition against Herc is the worse.
You have to take account how Herc is super nimble despite the size, able to instinctively dodge or block things that are dangerous for him, and has higher physical parameter than most other Servants.
NP aside, tactical retreat aside, even to begin hurting Herc with normal hits require said attack to be above A rank, requires said attack to be good enough to bypass Herc's own AGI and Mind's Eye, requires it to hit vital point and kill him instead of just nicking him in unimportant places, and requires doing it long enough before beaten to a pulp by Herc.

I know Herc is strong. Herc got mind's eye. Archer got mind's eye. Saber got instincts and/or clairvoyance. But Herc got beat 6 times by Archer. Saber is stronger than Archer in swordsmanship. A weak Saber cut once on a unrestrained Berserker in the forest. Berserker also hit Saber before. Point is Herc can be beat by swordsmanship. Just retreat before you die. Live to fight again. That's all Im saying.

By which he would resurrect and gained resistance against it.

But not immune. Getting pierce in the heart is all the same. You die. Same way 12 times. It's possible for Cu Chulainn.

Reversal of cause and effect does not render GOdHand immunity suddenly disappear. Under what logic would this happen?

It's resistance. It's just how I feel about it. Its just simply the wordplay. Reversal of cause and effect. To me, it means it can circumvent Godhand's A rank protection. Why this law can break that law?