Badass Versus Thread

[Clockehwork]

You cant say Herc will get resistance until the weapon has close to nil effect. You're basically saying resistance becomes immunity. As long as you have the mana to surge thru, you can kill Herc with swordsmanship. A swing is still a swing. Clearly when Nasu said Herc can still be damaged by fire, he's giving us a chance. No amount of resistance should reach immunity level.

There's a lot of cherry picking Herc's immunity. He shouldnt be gaining resistance until he's dead. And Herc cant regen lives. The wiki is wrong. Herc lost to Archer in swordsmanship. He most probably lose to Saber in swordsmanship. So to me, it doesnt matter he gains resistance. They can kill him.

We can say he gets resistance until the weapon has close to nil wffect, because that is explicitly how it works. The keyword is "close". Herc does not have immunity to being cut after he gets cut a thousand times. But he has enough cut resistance that it is going to do either 0 damage (if resistance is a flat number) or 1 damage (if resistance is a percentage that rounds down). That is how it works. You saying "but that would be basically like giving him immunity" is not an argument, it is a fact, because that is what God Hand does. Not immunity. But basically immunity.

As for "he shouldn't be gaining resistance until he's dead", cool opinion, but it is just that, an opinion. The fact is that him getting resistance until he is dead (and afterwards too) is what happens and trying to argue against that just makes you look whiny.

For Herc gaining lives back, Beast's Lair will be the first to tell you that the wiki is wrong. We all fucking know that. But just because something is written on the wiki does not mean it is false. And that fact is very much true.

[Zurvan]

1. There's a lot of cherry picking Herc's immunity.
2.He shouldnt be gaining resistance until he's dead.
3.And Herc cant regen lives.
4.The wiki is wrong.
5.Herc lost to Archer in swordsmanship.
6.He most probably lose to Saber in swordsmanship.
7.So to me, it doesnt matter he gains resistance. They can kill him.

1. Not really, you just don't seem to accept it
2. But he does...
3. Yes he can...
4. This is actually true, but not in the way you seem to think
5. uh, what now
6. uh, okay?
7. thats nice, I like to dream too

[castor212]

so i just read the wiki's entry about god hand
the text, not the citation
and why does this feels like a dejavu with best snek

[Zurvan]

Castor I like you, don't hurt yourself like this
We still need you here

[castor212]

S-S-Smooth

[youcanthandlethetruth1992]

It does.


Also the wiki is wrong

Restoring the wounds takes matters of minutes.
Restoring everything, including his whole lives, requires days.
THis is inline with the anime material Q&A that said it took days to recover lost lives.
And the anime also downright said that Herc's lives is recoverable.


I dont care about cherry picking done by others.

WHat I do is stick to what the material and interview said.


A cut when resisted with a resistance against cut becomes a not cut.
Herc cant die by swordsmanship because there's only so much a swordsmanship can do before Herc's resistance is high enough to completely resist it.

Nasu said that

It may not be a negation, but resist up is enough to make it not work to begin with.


Fate Grand Order material, which only repeats what the VN already said, which is that Herc's whole body is his NP, not just his skins.

This is my big issue with it. Back when there were only VN FSN, Studio Deen FSN, FHA and some books, Herc cannot regen lives. Which new anime says Herc can regen lives? Why would you retcon this? Why make him stronger?

Herc lives do regen. Don't trust the wiki. It is explained in the anime iirc.



It is after he regens, regardless of death. Saying it was after he revives was my bad. "Once you recover you would gain +100 resistance" is the statement.


Until he has enough resistance that the cutting attack won't even break his skin anymore and just bounces off. Which, in most cases, will be as soon as you try to make the second hit.


You favor the person explicitly said to have terrible odds.


EX is the rank above A. UBW has plenty of NPs, but because of the rank drop they will almost all be B or lower. They can be broken to get the rank back, like with Caladbolg II, but that is not an instantaneous process. And if he projects 12 identical NPs and does the exact same attack with all of them, by the end Herc will absolutely just walk through them unharmed.

I think swordsmanships can kill Herc becoz look at what Archer did to him. If the swords dont even cut, why even have a fight? Its Superman syndrome, giving him all the perks. Lets say Archer used 6 diff weapons. But taking account diff swordsmanship, at the most basic level, a swing is still just a swing, nevermind the swordsmanship. Say Herc got chopped on the arm from a upward swing. When it heals, I chopped it with a downward swing. It's bloody stupid. Now Saber comes. She's using Excalibur. She upward swings and chops Herc arm again. Its so bloody stupid.

That's why I wanna believe it my way. Im sorry, but I have to disagree with Nasu. I think he made a fine mess to be honest. It's fine to disagree with the author. Call it my criticism of his work.

Nasu said

Why would you favour a guy said to be very disadvantaged by the author him/herself

Becoz I like Cu Chulainn. I agree he would be at an disadvantage. But I think he can win. I dont care that Nasu say repeated attacks wont work. Becoz he also said Cu Chulainn would have a chance. Do you see what he did? He's putting his argument into a corner and I realise this. That's why Im not a hardcore Word of God subscriber. I criticize god's work.

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Where is the link to Complete Material 3, herc's profile?

[castor212]

This is my big issue with it. Back when there were only VN FSN, Studio Deen FSN, FHA and some books, Herc cannot regen lives. Which new anime says Herc can regen lives? Why would you retcon this? Why make him stronger?

its not a retcon because "some books" already explained that he can regen lives.

I think swordsmanships can kill Herc becoz look at what Archer did to him.

What archer did is not swordsmanship. Its launching a missile with the shape of a sword.

Say Herc got chopped on the arm from a upward swing. When it heals, I chopped it with a downward swing. It's bloody stupid. Now Saber comes. She's using Excalibur. She upward swings and chops Herc arm again. Its so bloody stupid.

You cant, because the second swing would meet a resistance.
Saber never chopped Herc's arm.

Its Superman syndrome, giving him all the perks.

THats How Herc was in legend. Nasu is just staying true to it.

That's why I wanna believe it my way. Im sorry, but I have to disagree with Nasu. I think he made a fine mess to be honest. It's fine to disagree with the author. Call it my criticism of his work.

Becoz I like Cu Chulainn. I agreehe would be at an disadvantage. But I think he can win. I dont care that Nasu say repeated attacks wont work. Becoz he also said Cu Chulainn would have a chance. Do you see what he did? He's putting his argument into a corner and I realise this. That's why Im not a hardcore Word of God subscriber. I criticize god's work.

Cool.
Youre still till factually wrong tho. Just saying.

Also no offense but

So lets discuss.

THis is not your intention at all. You just want to justify whats inside your head. Discussion is meant to reach a decision by means of idea exchange. But you already have an idea that you hold on into, despite it being factually wrong and directly opposing the system that the creator made. So now its not a discussion, but a criticism.
Why even bother to begin with?
Next time, call a spade a spade and just say from the beginning you want to criticize, not discuss.

[Iceblade44]

I think swordsmanships can kill Herc becoz look at what Archer did to him. If the swords dont even cut, why even have a fight? Its Superman syndrome, giving him all the perks. Lets say Archer used 6 diff weapons. But taking account diff swordsmanship, at the most basic level, a swing is still just a swing, nevermind the swordsmanship. Say Herc got chopped on the arm from a upward swing. When it heals, I chopped it with a downward swing. It's bloody stupid. Now Saber comes. She's using Excalibur. She upward swings and chops Herc arm again. Its so bloody stupid.

One thing i want to point out here is that Herk wasn't just killed by being slashed 6 times. Going by the descriptions of how Herks legs were apparently melted i'd say EMIYA relied more on the special abilities of the weapons he projected then just his sword skills

[castor212]

I mean
its like you cant handle the truth or something, youcanthandlethetruth1992

[youcanthandlethetruth1992]

this also doesnt happen. Rin had to uses a bunch of jewel to amass enough power to blow Herc's head, not his arms, and even then Herc still did not let go.
He did not get pushed by Saber. It was Saber that got pushed from the ferocity of Herc's attacks.


I can because thats what Nasu said.

Its not complete negation, but it wont work.
I only repeat what the author has to say about it.


A swing when resisted becomes a swing that does no damage.


He never said that.
In fact, on the very same Q&A he said that resistance makes attacks that it resisted becomes ineffective (効かなくなる)
So yeah, the resistance, for all sense and purpose, is the same in effect as immunity. It's just the mechanism thats different.


Its not cherry picking if its backd up by official material.
Nothing ever said he gained resistance only after dead. THe materials downright said its resist up after taking damage.
Herc can regen lives. THe materials and anime downright said he can.
Launching your sword ala projectile is not swordsmanship.
Saber does have the high level technique in swordsmanship. But physical parameter is a thing.


I mean ok, you can think that, but you're factually wrong. Just saying.

Rin used ice jewels to shred Herc's arm then blow his head. And Saber pushed Herc back after an opening.

We can say he gets resistance until the weapon has close to nil wffect, because that is explicitly how it works. The keyword is "close". Herc does not have immunity to being cut after he gets cut a thousand times. But he has enough cut resistance that it is going to do either 0 damage (if resistance is a flat number) or 1 damage (if resistance is a percentage that rounds down). That is how it works. You saying "but that would be basically like giving him immunity" is not an argument, it is a fact, because that is what God Hand does. Not immunity. But basically immunity.

As for "he shouldn't be gaining resistance until he's dead", cool opinion, but it is just that, an opinion. The fact is that him getting resistance until he is dead (and afterwards too) is what happens and trying to argue against that just makes you look whiny.

For Herc gaining lives back, Beast's Lair will be the first to tell you that the wiki is wrong. We all fucking know that. But just because something is written on the wiki does not mean it is false. And that fact is very much true.

Yea, I read the Q&A for the umpteenth time. Nasu just making counter arguments on himself. And then new stuff comes up that he can regen lives. I used read the VN and that's it. Look up some material books during the time in 08/09. Studio Deen. All these things saying Herc is almost invincible but the image for me is he still lost. He still got beat 6 times by Archer.

Now if Herc is so invincible, why Nasu also say Alter Saber also dominates Herc? Why cant he just say she kills him? Does she kill him or not? But then how? With her swordsmanship or with Excalibur?

[Clockehwork]

This is my big issue with it. Back when there were only VN FSN, Studio Deen FSN, FHA and some books, Herc cannot regen lives. Which new anime says Herc can regen lives? Why would you retcon this? Why make him stronger?

When I mentioned the anime I was referring to UBW, but as McJon's proved by quoting Complete Material 3, I was wrong. It was mentioned long before the UBW anime. It is not new, not a retcon.

I think swordsmanships can kill Herc becoz look at what Archer did to him. If the swords dont even cut, why even have a fight? Its Superman syndrome, giving him all the perks. Lets say Archer used 6 diff weapons. But taking account diff swordsmanship, at the most basic level, a swing is still just a swing, nevermind the swordsmanship. Say Herc got chopped on the arm from a upward swing. When it heals, I chopped it with a downward swing. It's bloody stupid. Now Saber comes. She's using Excalibur. She upward swings and chops Herc arm again. Its so bloody stupid.

Archer hurts Herc so bad because Archer is one of the exceptionally few Servants who can keep pulling new stuff out of his ass. Swordsmanship doesn't matter. Like the fire example, the thing Herc gets resistance to is not "stepping in fire" or "having fire thrown at him", it is just fire. It doesn't matter how the attack is performed. What matters is what does the attack. The thing you are using to try and show why swordsmanship can kill Herc is actually the single best example showing that of course it takes more than swordsmanship to kill Herc, the guy who makes new weapons out of thin air has to give his all to take half Herc's lives. Herc does not get resistance to "upward swing". He gets resistance to Caladbolg II, Excalibur, Gae Bolg, etc. Because they are different things hurting him, not different ways to hurt him.

That's why I wanna believe it my way. Im sorry, but I have to disagree with Nasu. I think he made a fine mess to be honest. It's fine to disagree with the author. Call it my criticism of his work.

Disagreeing with an author is not the same thing as trying to say facts are wrong.

Becoz I like Cu Chulainn. I agree he would be at an disadvantage. But I think he can win. I dont care that Nasu say repeated attacks wont work. Becoz he also said Cu Chulainn would have a chance. Do you see what he did? He's putting his argument into a corner and I realise this. That's why Im not a hardcore Word of God subscriber. I criticize god's work.

He's not putting his argument in a corner. He is saying "yeah it is possible I guess". There is no contradiction. It is possible for Cu to beat him. But repeated attacks still won't work, which makes it very hard for Cu to actually do so. You are not criticizing Nasu's work, you are just going "nuh-uh I BELIEVE". That's not being a critic. It is being willfully ignorant.

If you don't want to accept WoG this isn't the franchise for you, because it kind of runs on that concept. It is painfully obvious your approach to fiction does not work with Fate.

[eddyak]

This is my big issue with it. Back when there were only VN FSN, Studio Deen FSN, FHA and some books, Herc cannot regen lives. Which new anime says Herc can regen lives? Why would you retcon this? Why make him stronger?

It definitely isn't a retcon. God Hand is an NP. The game states that a hero can put their NP back together, given enough time and mana. Illya's not just a mana battery, she's a mana nuclear reactor.

[Iceblade44]

Yea, I read the Q&A for the umpteenth time. Nasu just making counter arguments on himself. And then new stuff comes up that he can regen lives. I used read the VN and that's it. Look up some material books during the time in 08/09. Studio Deen. All these things saying Herc is almost invincible but the image for me is he still lost. He still got beat 6 times by Archer.

Now if Herc is so invincible, why Nasu also say Alter Saber also dominates Herc? Why cant he just say she kills him? Does she kill him or not? But then how? With her swordsmanship or with Excalibur?

But we know how, it was in Heavens Feel. She literally Excalibured him in the face.

[castor212]

Rin used ice jewels to shred Herc's arm then blow his head. And Saber pushed Herc back after an opening.

THat is NOT what happened.
THe ice did cut Herc's one arm, but it did not shred it.
And Saber never pushed him back in that scene

look, are you sure youve actual read the VN?
Or atleast crosschecked the fact before posting?

He still got beat 6 times by Archer.

Archer didnt beat him 6 times, he killed him 6 times but than got his ass handed to him and disappear.
That aint defeating Herc.

There is this thing called compatibility in Nasuverse VS.

Yea, I read the Q&A for the umpteenth time. Nasu just making counter arguments on himself. And then new stuff comes up that he can regen lives.

thats great but regen lives was not new. its a thing of a decade ago

Now if Herc is so invincible, why Nasu also say Alter Saber also dominates Herc? Why cant he just say she kills him? Does she kill him or not? But then how? With her swordsmanship or with Excalibur?

Because Nasu has made it clear what are things can defeat Herc and Saber Alter possesses it?
THis isnt even rocket science.

[Clockehwork]

Rin used ice jewels to shred Herc's arm then blow his head. And Saber pushed Herc back after an opening.

If you are going to keep saying something happened, you should be going back and rereading that to prove your point, not rereading the same Q&A that you refuse to acknowledge because you don't like it.

All these things saying Herc is almost invincible but the image for me is he still lost. He still got beat 6 times by Archer.

He was killed 6 times by Archer. He didn't lose. To lose he would have to be killed 12 times. When someone's broken ability is "doesn't lose until killed 12 times", you can't kill them once and say they lost.

Now if Herc is so invincible, why Nasu also say Alter Saber also dominates Herc? Why cant he just say she kills him? Does she kill him or not? But then how? With her swordsmanship or with Excalibur?

Because A: he's not invincible, B: Saber Alter hooked up to a grail is stronger than regular Saber, and C: Berserker is almost certainly his worst class. Excalibur blows Herc away, and she uniquely can spam it so even with hugely diminishing returns she'll be able to put out enough damage to quickly burn through his lives, assuming she even needs more than one shot.

[youcanthandlethetruth1992]

When I mentioned the anime I was referring to UBW, but as McJon's proved by quoting Complete Material 3, I was wrong. It was mentioned long before the UBW anime. It is not new, not a retcon.



Archer hurts Herc so bad because Archer is one of the exceptionally few Servants who can keep pulling new stuff out of his ass. Swordsmanship doesn't matter. Like the fire example, the thing Herc gets resistance to is not "stepping in fire" or "having fire thrown at him", it is just fire. It doesn't matter how the attack is performed. What matters is what does the attack. The thing you are using to try and show why swordsmanship can kill Herc is actually the single best example showing that of course it takes more than swordsmanship to kill Herc, the guy who makes new weapons out of thin air has to give his all to take half Herc's lives. Herc does not get resistance to "upward swing". He gets resistance to Caladbolg II, Excalibur, Gae Bolg, etc. Because they are different things hurting him, not different ways to hurt him.


Disagreeing with an author is not the same thing as trying to say facts are wrong.


He's not putting his argument in a corner. He is saying "yeah it is possible I guess". There is no contradiction. It is possible for Cu to beat him. But repeated attacks still won't work, which makes it very hard for Cu to actually do so. You are not criticizing Nasu's work, you are just going "nuh-uh I BELIEVE". That's not being a critic. It is being willfully ignorant.

If you don't want to accept WoG this isn't the franchise for you, because it kind of runs on that concept. It is painfully obvious your approach to fiction does not work with Fate.

I have a feeling it's one of those books during 08/09. There were a few chatter about it on mirromoon. I think I have it but it's in japanese, no? Ok, I just wanna criticize, ok? I dont like how Nasu made Herc invincible. He still lost in every story. But also every story didnt show these abilities. The thing is, he didnt show the fight between Archer and Herc. Sure the melted leg sounds like a special move. There were a couple of holes. A dangling arm and a big slash. Taking it all into account, it seems Archer took some lives just by swordsmanship alone. Plus we have the Studio Deen scene which leaves an impression.

Plus, are you guys really saying Herc will become invincible to blast type NPs like Cadabolg and Excalibur? Excalibur, to me is absurb. Cadabolg is good enough to take one live. It should be good enough to take a 2nd.

Also, think about it. If Gae Bolg wont work repeatedly, then Cu Chulainn cant truly kill Herc. How can his answer justify this? You cannot. Everybody is saying Gae Bolg wont work. But Nasu says he can. Well how then? You cannot justify this. That's why I dont subscribe to GOW.

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It definitely isn't a retcon. God Hand is an NP. The game states that a hero can put their NP back together, given enough time and mana. Illya's not just a mana battery, she's a mana nuclear reactor.

No, this info wasnt in the game. It came from the book material 3 reportedly.

[Mcjon01]

Different rune combos count as different attacks
Woah, I solved it

[youcanthandlethetruth1992]

But we know how, it was in Heavens Feel. She literally Excalibured him in the face.

I only remember fate and ubw route. I dont remember hf. I dont plan on watching the anime soon. What happen there?

[Mcjon01]

No, this info wasnt in the game. It came from the book material 3 reportedly.

It’s what Illya meant when she said it would take three days to fully recover, not Nasu’s fault if people didn’t understand since it clearly wasn’t talking about the physical injuries that had all healed by the time they tracked down Shirou and the gang

[castor212]

I also dont subsribe to GOW because I think Kratos is kinda a dick in all GOW games
but then Norse GOW came up

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Ok, I just wanna criticize, ok?

then why did you say you want to discuss then

I dont like how Nasu made Herc invincible. He still lost in every story. But also every story didnt show these abilities. The thing is, he didnt show the fight between Archer and Herc. Sure the melted leg sounds like a special move. There were a couple of holes. A dangling arm and a big slash. Taking it all into account, it seems Archer took some lives just by swordsmanship alone. Plus we have the Studio Deen scene which leaves an impression.

and he still fails to win
its official, swordsmanship cant win against Herc.

Plus, are you guys really saying Herc will become invincible to blast type NPs like Cadabolg and Excalibur? Excalibur, to me is absurb. Cadabolg is good enough to take one live. It should be good enough to take a 2nd.

That's what the mats said soooo
resist after regen. so if full powerexcalibur wipe all of his lives, then he cant get resist up. This is inline with what Nasu said.
WIth Caladbolg? Its perfectly possible for him to get a resist out of it. Why wouldnt it? ANd dont say "because i feel like it would" because your feeling is not fact.

Also, think about it. If Gae Bolg wont work repeatedly, then Cu Chulainn cant truly kill Herc. How can his answer justify this? You cannot. Everybody is saying Gae Bolg wont work. But Nasu says he can. Well how then? You cannot justify this.

Sure we can
uses different runes from the dozens or so that he got to do a bunch of differnt attacks
its possible, but its pretty damn hard to do with Herc also in his face that its just a really really small chance
dont see whats wrong here

No, this info wasnt in the game. It came from the book material 3 reportedly.

its literally on the quote of the game that illya said