Badass Versus Thread

[Zurvan]

Plus, are you guys really saying Herc will become invincible to blast type NPs like Cadabolg and Excalibur? Excalibur, to me is absurb. Cadabolg is good enough to take one live. It should be good enough to take a 2nd.

Also, think about it. If Gae Bolg wont work repeatedly, then Cu Chulainn cant truly kill Herc. How can his answer justify this? You cannot. Everybody is saying Gae Bolg wont work. But Nasu says he can. Well how then? You cannot justify this. That's why I dont subscribe to GOW.

Full power Excalibur likely would kill Herk in one go, so no he wouldn't get resistance. For the rest, imagine it like pokemon, everytime someone uses a move on Herk, he gets a Defense/Special Defense boost, simple right?

Honestly I can see Gae Bolg working more than once, since I believe it destroys his spiritual core, I think there's something about how Gae Bolg always does 100% damage, (Servants vs DA iirc) so upping that would still give him a chance. You'd need to fire of 12 Gae Bolgs, or thrown versions, but hey a chance is a chance

[Iceblade44]

I have a feeling it's one of those books during 08/09. There were a few chatter about it on mirromoon. I think I have it but it's in japanese, no? Ok, I just wanna criticize, ok? I dont like how Nasu made Herc invincible. He still lost in every story.

that's kinda the points he's supposed to be this super invincible HS to show either tremendous effort in the protag party in defeating him. (Shirou & gang) or to show how dangerous the antagonists are who beat him (Gil and Saber Alter). Herk is still a big thing, there's a reason why Illya was so confident in revealing his true name, because he is freaking Heracles. One of the most famous heroes ever.

But also every story didnt show these abilities. The thing is, he didnt show the fight between Archer and Herc. Sure the melted leg sounds like a special move. There were a couple of holes. A dangling arm and a big slash. Taking it all into account, it seems Archer took some lives just by swordsmanship alone. Plus we have the Studio Deen scene which leaves an impression.

But studio deen had him using different swords everytime to take a life, he never takes two lives with one sword. Sure his swordmanship is what allows him to fight in melee with Herk, but he was reliant in changing his weapons.

Also one of them exploded.

Plus, are you guys really saying Herc will become invincible to blast type NPs like Cadabolg and Excalibur? Excalibur, to me is absurb. Cadabolg is good enough to take one live. It should be good enough to take a 2nd.

no he becomes resistant to Caladbolg if used on him, he wouldn't get resistance to Excalibur. It should be noted that Excalibur makes an attack by using light. Caladbolg doesn't.[/QUOTE]

[youcanthandlethetruth1992]

THat is NOT what happened.
THe ice did cut Herc's one arm, but it did not shred it.
And Saber never pushed him back in that scene

look, are you sure youve actual read the VN?
Or atleast crosschecked the fact before posting?


Archer didnt beat him 6 times, he killed him 6 times but than got his ass handed to him and disappear.
That aint defeating Herc.

There is this thing called compatibility in Nasuverse VS.


thats great but regen lives was not new. its a thing of a decade ago


Because Nasu has made it clear what are things can defeat Herc and Saber Alter possesses it?
THis isnt even rocket science.

If you are going to keep saying something happened, you should be going back and rereading that to prove your point, not rereading the same Q&A that you refuse to acknowledge because you don't like it.




He was killed 6 times by Archer. He didn't lose. To lose he would have to be killed 12 times. When someone's broken ability is "doesn't lose until killed 12 times", you can't kill them once and say they lost.


Because A: he's not invincible, B: Saber Alter hooked up to a grail is stronger than regular Saber, and C: Berserker is almost certainly his worst class. Excalibur blows Herc away, and she uniquely can spam it so even with hugely diminishing returns she'll be able to put out enough damage to quickly burn through his lives, assuming she even needs more than one shot.

What are you guys talking about? I just booted the game from my 08 laptop minutes ago. Saber created an opening and pushed Herc back meters and Rin cut his arm, ok? Shredded or cut its not a huge difference. Sure, Archer killed him not beat him, just replace the word. What the hell? So nitpicky. I say beat becoz Archer beat him in combat if its a fair fight to drive home the point of swordsmanship becoz it looked like he killed him at least 1 time with a slash.

Swordsmanship wise, Herc is not invincible. But making his body is is just dull imo.

[Iceblade44]

Full power Excalibur likely would kill Herk in one go, so no he wouldn't get resistance. For the rest, imagine it like pokemon, everytime someone uses a move on Herk, he gets a Defense/Special Defense boost, simple right?

Honestly I can see Gae Bolg working more than once, since I believe it destroys his spiritual core, I think there's something about how Gae Bolg always does 100% damage, (Servants vs DA iirc) so upping that would still give him a chance. You'd need to fire of 12 Gae Bolgs, or thrown versions, but hey a chance is a chance

Probably something like that. In Cu's mats it mentions that against Herk's ressurects Gae Bolg has a slight disadvantage. The thing that piped my interest is that slight

[eddyak]

No, this info wasnt in the game. It came from the book material 3 reportedly.

No, it was in the game. It came with the talk about BPs.

[castor212]

Saber created an opening and pushed Herc back meters and Rin cut his arm, ok?

because you said its Rin's magic blows him and then Saber pushed him.
THat was not what happened at all in that scene. You got the chronology wrong in your initial post dude.

Shredded or cut its not a huge difference.

shredded is cut to pieces. implying it basically destroyed his arm
lacerate is a cut

its a p fucking big differences.

and the point is taht the Ice Magic did it because its a high rank magic strong able to blow a house
not a swing of a sword or a swordsmanship

Sure, Archer killed him not beat him, just replace the word. What the hell? So nitpicky. I say beat becoz Archer beat him in combat if its a fair fight to drive home the point of swordsmanship becoz it looked like he killed him at least 1 time with a slash.

because you keep on saying swordsmanship can beat Herc, aka kill Herc for good
when existing example says it cant

Swordsmanship wise, Herc is not invincible. But making his body is is just dull imo.

his body isnt invincible 24/7 mate
there are things that can bypass it
the Greek gods literally give him immortality after the twelve labors.
if anything he got nerfed

[Zurvan]

so, what do you think this means?

[8000]

Saber Alter only beat Herc when he was being tied up by the shadow. Without that I doubt she could've kept up with his speed.

[Clockehwork]

Ok, I just wanna criticize, ok?

Then criticize. Don't argue like you know what you are talking about from an in-universe perspective, when you clearly have not actually looked into it more than the bare minimum to be considered "you read the thing at some point I guess".

I dont like how Nasu made Herc invincible.

He didn't. He made Herc very, very strong. Not invincible. And if anyone deserves being very very strong, it is Heracles. And that is in his worst class, you should hear about the pelt he gets when he's Archer.

He still lost in every story. But also every story didnt show these abilities.

No, they totally did.

The thing is, he didnt show the fight between Archer and Herc. Sure the melted leg sounds like a special move. There were a couple of holes. A dangling arm and a big slash. Taking it all into account, it seems Archer took some lives just by swordsmanship alone.

He clearly fought with some swordsmanship, we know that much. But there is nothing even remotely suggesting that Emiya, who is a bad fighter, used swordsmanship to kill Heracles, who is an absolute monster in melee.

Plus we have the Studio Deen scene which leaves an impression.

Studio Deen is not so.ething you should base anything on ever, except maybe "how not to make a Fate anime".

Plus, are you guys really saying Herc will become invincible to blast type NPs like Cadabolg and Excalibur? Excalibur, to me is absurb. Cadabolg is good enough to take one live. It should be good enough to take a 2nd.

Sure. Assuming Excalibur does not take all 12 lives at once, which it veryprobably does, and assuming time is not an issue, Herc can spend a long time recovering, then take another hit to gain more resistance, and so on until he for all intents and purposes is immune to Excalibur. But that's not very efficient, especially not in a 14 day HGW.

Also, think about it. If Gae Bolg wont work repeatedly, then Cu Chulainn cant truly kill Herc. How can his answer justify this? You cannot. Everybody is saying Gae Bolg wont work. But Nasu says he can. Well how then? You cannot justify this. That's why I dont subscribe to GOW.

Different runes are different things, like McJon said, is fully possible. Alternative explanations include "maybe a direct hit to the heart that isn't completely harmless is enough to kill Herc once again even if he has 11 stocks of resistance to it", or "maybe Cu can take 1 life with the thrust technique and another 11 all at once with the thrown" or any number of alternatives. Maybe the curse of the spear to not heal plays a role, I don't think we have any word on how it would interact with God Hand? There is plenty of potential justifications, you just refuse to even consider them.

[Iceblade44]

I only remember fate and ubw route. I dont remember hf. I dont plan on watching the anime soon. What happen there?

Basically what I said, Saber Alter excalibured Herk in the face, destroying him. What remained got devoured by the shadow to create literally patchwork herk

[Tobias]

So what’s the argument now?

[eddyak]

I dont like how Nasu made Herc invincible.

Just to clear this up- Nasu didn't make Herc invincible.

"Herc" is motherfucking Herakles. Strongest son of Zeus. The guy who was set thirteen impossible tasks by a king who hated him. The guy who lifted the heavens in place of a Titan. The guy who killed a monster that was so poisonous it was fatal to breathe near it, which regrew heads each time they're cut off, which also had at least nine heads at the beginning of the fight. The guy who killed a lion whose skin was immune to all weaponry with his bare hands. The guy who was granted godhood after he died, for all the ridiculous shit he did.

Nasu absolutely did not wank him. Nasu de-wanked him. If Herc was closer his legends, he'd be stronger. He'd be so much stronger he'd have steamrolled the fifth war, snapped Excalibur and King Arthur both in half, grilled & eaten Pegasus, spanked Cu till he cried, and probably punched Gilgamesh across the city to boot, all on the first night.

[youcanthandlethetruth1992]

It’s what Illya meant when she said it would take three days to fully recover, not Nasu’s fault if people didn’t understand since it clearly wasn’t talking about the physical injuries that had all healed by the time they tracked down Shirou and the gang

C'mon. When you read it the first time and the single line says "But restoring everything would take 3 days" which comes after "wounds that are not fatal will be fully healed within a few minutes, when anybody reads it the first, nobody is going "oh he'll regen lives". And the stats page says nothing about it. The novel was painting a picture, Herc dead with wounds all over, probably fatal when you combine them. Healing everything must mean healing mana wise, not just body wise. Especially when Archer took a blow from Saber, later on his body was fine but he's still not fully healed. That complete material book 3 retcon it.

[castor212]

If Herc was closer his legends, he'd be stronger. He'd be so much stronger he'd have steamrolled the fifth war, snapped Excalibur and King Arthur both in half, grilled & eaten Pegasus, spanked Cu till he cried, and probably punched Gilgamesh across the city to boot, all on the first night.

We've basically seen one of this.
3 more to go

- - - Updated - - -

So what’s the argument now?

herc is wanked and cu should be more OP

[forumghost]

C'mon. When you read it the first time and the single line says "But restoring everything would take 3 days" which comes after "wounds that are not fatal will be fully healed within a few minutes, when anybody reads it the first, nobody is going "oh he'll regen lives". And the stats page says nothing about it. The novel was painting a picture, Herc dead with wounds all over, probably fatal when you combine them. Healing everything must mean healing mana wise, not just body wise. Especially when Archer took a blow from Saber, later on his body was fine but he's still not fully healed. That complete material book 3 retcon it.

No it didn't. Ilya follows up the "restoring everything would take 3 days" with "I can't wait that long, 5 should be enough" which is clearly referring to his stock of lives.

[Iceblade44]

cu should be more OP

He kinda of does. He deserves it. That's why Proper Berserker Cu when?

[Zurvan]

Without recharging Cu can fire 7 Gae Bolgs, he can Disengage whenever, projectiles get fucked, and he's strong with a spear and is hard to kill.

The only issue I have with Cu is that in FSN he gets gimped because a lot of that cast are actually really strong Servants, and he gets gimped by Kotomine and life
In a normal HGW he could sweep more easily, other than Gil and maybe Arondight Lancelot, he'd probably beat Zero's cast (but alas he still gets kayneth as master)

really its just sad being a Lancer in Fate

[youcanthandlethetruth1992]

because you said its Rin's magic blows him and then Saber pushed him.
THat was not what happened at all in that scene. You got the chronology wrong in your initial post dude.

and the point is taht the Ice Magic did it because its a high rank magic strong able to blow a house
not a swing of a sword or a swordsmanship

because you keep on saying swordsmanship can beat Herc, aka kill Herc for good
when existing example says it cant


his body isnt invincible 24/7 mate
there are things that can bypass it
the Greek gods literally give him immortality after the twelve labors.
if anything he got nerfed

Becoz I had to repeat it two times plus I had to add that it was Rin that cut him. You got it wrong 2 times first. In that one post if I put that Rin cut him before Saber pushed him, I didnt use the word "then" coz I know it's not in chrono order. I was just stating matter of factly coz I had to say it twice or 3 times. so nitpicky and you're wrong first.

now, who's to say arthur from arthurian legend cant kill the real heracles? i say hes got a god killing weapon in excalibur. and you can cut him and only kill him once. but i digress.

Saber Alter only beat Herc when he was being tied up by the shadow. Without that I doubt she could've kept up with his speed.

But Nasu said Alter Saber dominates Herc. The only different between Saber and Alter Saber is the mana pool from the grail. Saber with a good master still beats Herc.

Then criticize. Don't argue like you know what you are talking about from an in-universe perspective, when you clearly have not actually looked into it more than the bare minimum to be considered "you read the thing at some point I guess".


He didn't. He made Herc very, very strong. Not invincible. And if anyone deserves being very very strong, it is Heracles. And that is in his worst class, you should hear about the pelt he gets when he's Archer.


No, they totally did.


He clearly fought with some swordsmanship, we know that much. But there is nothing even remotely suggesting that Emiya, who is a bad fighter, used swordsmanship to kill Heracles, who is an absolute monster in melee.


Studio Deen is not so.ething you should base anything on ever, except maybe "how not to make a Fate anime".


Sure. Assuming Excalibur does not take all 12 lives at once, which it veryprobably does, and assuming time is not an issue, Herc can spend a long time recovering, then take another hit to gain more resistance, and so on until he for all intents and purposes is immune to Excalibur. But that's not very efficient, especially not in a 14 day HGW.


Different runes are different things, like McJon said, is fully possible. Alternative explanations include "maybe a direct hit to the heart that isn't completely harmless is enough to kill Herc once again even if he has 11 stocks of resistance to it", or "maybe Cu can take 1 life with the thrust technique and another 11 all at once with the thrown" or any number of alternatives. Maybe the curse of the spear to not heal plays a role, I don't think we have any word on how it would interact with God Hand? There is plenty of potential justifications, you just refuse to even consider them.

What is this different rune attacks? The runes are not real attacks but augment the spear, right? Then it's still just Gae Bolg. It's 1 weapon 2 specials.

Just to clear this up- Nasu didn't make Herc invincible.

"Herc" is motherfucking Herakles. Strongest son of Zeus. The guy who was set thirteen impossible tasks by a king who hated him. The guy who lifted the heavens in place of a Titan. The guy who killed a monster that was so poisonous it was fatal to breathe near it, which regrew heads each time they're cut off, which also had at least nine heads at the beginning of the fight. The guy who killed a lion whose skin was immune to all weaponry with his bare hands. The guy who was granted godhood after he died, for all the ridiculous shit he did.

Nasu absolutely did not wank him. Nasu de-wanked him. If Herc was closer his legends, he'd be stronger. He'd be so much stronger he'd have steamrolled the fifth war, snapped Excalibur and King Arthur both in half, grilled & eaten Pegasus, spanked Cu till he cried, and probably punched Gilgamesh across the city to boot, all on the first night.

Nah, Herc cant snap a holy weapon. Arthur with Excalibur can kill Herc. Excalibur can kill gods.

[Iceblade44]

I don't know if he could beat Iskandar. If i remember right he has very high luck. There's always the Soaring death throw but i don't think that be enough to destroy enough troops to cancel the the RM. If he hit Iskandar he does win so who knows.

[youcanthandlethetruth1992]

No it didn't. Ilya follows up the "restoring everything would take 3 days" with "I can't wait that long, 5 should be enough" which is clearly referring to his stock of lives.

It's a stretch. It's not definitive. If complet material 3 doesnt exist, you cant objectively say that is the case.